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Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Sun195, Dec 8, 2008.
See, nothing to worry about...
And, from his home state...
Crikey... I made several similar points this morning:
If you really want to win over lawful gun owners promise NOT to enact an assault weapon ban, promise NOT to enact the draconian ammunition accountability act, promise NOT to require universal firearm registration, promise to rein in the abuses of the BATFE. Otherwise, stop wasting your breath on obviously false propaganda.
The second one is right on the money. I think if it happens there wont be much people can do about it except speak up and make themselves heard or start up a militia. A militia would not be totally out of the question for sure if they tried to force it on us.
Did I hear the words, "common sense gun laws"???
So whats a gun???
He just doesn't want people to stock up on mags and FUN guns before he bans em!
I guess I am preaching to the choir here thought....
Maybe he can Community Organize a national gun buyback and get em back for $100 giftcards to k-mart
I can already see the way it's going to go for us,Hillary and Obama Will try convince congress and the senate to limit us to only manual feed firearms, then to limit us to only four and then to eliminate private handguns.
I'm so happy that I got one of my pmags orders in today!! :thumbup:
The least despicable thing about him..is that he's a bald faced liar.. So what does it matter what he "says"....
I floated the militia idea on grey beard and the consensus was we would be arrested by homeland secutity as a terrorist outfit and held without charges.
But I still think it would be a great idea then we could say it is living up to the second amendment.
Incoming wall of text:
FACT: Barack Obama opposes four of the five Supreme Court justices who affirmed an individual right to keep and bear arms. He voted against the confirmation of Alito and Roberts and he has stated he would not have appointed Thomas or Scalia.17
FACT: Barack Obama voted for an Illinois State Senate bill to ban and confiscate “assault weapons,” but the bill was so poorly crafted, it would have also banned most semi-auto and single and double barrel shotguns commonly used by sportsmen.18
FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry.1
FACT: Barack Obama wants to re-impose the failed and discredited Clinton Gun Ban.15
FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.3
FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a 500% increase in the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition.9
FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a complete ban on handgun ownership.2
FACT: Barack Obama supports local gun bans in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and other cities.4
FACT: Barack Obama voted to uphold local gun bans and the criminal prosecution of people
who use firearms in self-defense.5
FACT: Barack Obama supports gun owner licensing and gun registration.6
FACT: Barack Obama refused to sign a friend-of-the-court Brief in support of individual Second Amendment rights in the Heller case.
FACT: Barack Obama opposes Right to Carry laws.7
FACT: Barack Obama was a member of the Board of Directors of the Joyce Foundation, the leading source of funds for anti-gun organizations and “research.”8
FACT: Barack Obama supported a proposal to ban gun stores within 5 miles of a school or park, which would eliminate almost every gun store in America.9
FACT: Barack Obama voted not to notify gun owners when the state of Illinois did records searches on them.10
FACT: Barack Obama voted against a measure to lower the Firearms Owners Identification card age minimum from 21 to 18, a measure designed to assist young people in the military.11
FACT: Barack Obama favors a ban on standard capacity magazines.12
FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory micro-stamping.13
FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory waiting periods.2
FACT: Barack Obama supports repeal of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits information on gun traces collected by the BATFE from being used in reckless lawsuits against firearm dealers and manufacturers.14
FACT: Barack Obama supports one-gun-a-month handgun purchase restrictions.16
FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on inexpensive handguns.9
FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on the resale of police issued firearms, even if the money is going to police departments for replacement equipment.9
FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory firearm training requirements for all gun owners and a ban on gun ownership for persons under the age of 21.9
1. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 219, July 29, 2005. (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=1&vote=00219)
2. Independent Voters of Illinois/Independent Precinct Organization general candidate questionnaire, Sept. 9, 1996. The responses on this survey were described in “Obama had greater role on liberal survey,” Politico, March 31, 2008. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9269.html)
3. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 217, Kennedy amendment July 29, 2005. (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=1&vote=00217)
4. David Wright, Ursula Fahy and Sunlen Miller, "Obama: 'Common Sense Regulation' On Gun Owners' Rights," ABC News' "Political Radar" Blog, http://blogs.abcnews.com, 2/15/08. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalra...common-se.html)
5. Illinois Senate, SB 2165, March 25, 2004, vote 20 and May 25, 2004, vote 3.
6. “Fact Check: No News In Obama's Consistent Record.” Obama ’08, December 11, 2007. (http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck...n_obamas_c.php)
7. “Candidates' gun control positions may figure in Pa. vote,” Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Wednesday, April 2, 2008, and "Keyes, Obama Are Far Apart On Guns," Chicago Tribune, 9/15/04. (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_560181.html)
8. 1998 Joyce Foundation Annual Report, p. 7.
9. “Obama and Gun Control,” The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (http://www.volokh.com/posts/1203389334.shtml)
10. Illinois Senate, May 5, 2002, SB 1936 Con., vote 26.
11. Illinois Senate, March 25, 2003, SB 2163, vote 18.
12. “Clinton, Edwards, Obama on gun control,” Radio Iowa, Sunday, April 22, 2007. (http://learfield.typepad.com/radioio...n_edwards.html)
13. Chicago Tribune blogs, “Barack Obama: NIU Shootings call for action,” February 15, 2008, (http://blogs.trb.com/news/politics/b..._on_shoot.html)
14. Barack Obama campaign website: “As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment . . .” (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ur...aw-enforcement.)
15. Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes (http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bara...un_Control.htm and http://www.ontheissues.org/IL_2004_Senate_3rd.htm) Oct 21, 2004.
16. Illinois Senate, May 16, 2003, HB 2579, vote 34.
17. United States Senate vote 245, September 29, 2005 and vote 2, January 31, 2006 and Saddleback Forum, August 16, 2008.
18. Illinois Senate Judiciary Committee, March 13, 2003. To see the vote tally go to: http://www.nrapvf.org/Media/pdf/sb1195_obama.pdf.
^ That's just common sense though, right?
A surprisingly pro-gun editorial on Slate.com, a (typically) progressive site I read. Its a rather good, "fact rich" article in my mind.
Crazy About Guns
The press spooks its readers about increased gun purchases.
By Jack Shafer
Posted Thursday, Nov. 13, 2008, at 6:26 PM ET
Are gun sales really dramatically on the rise?
Firearms scare almost everybody. But no demographic gets more wiggy about handguns, shotguns, and rifles than journalists. Ever since the Washington Post ("Gun Sales Thriving in Uncertain Times," Oct. 27) put the idea into circulation that the election and economic turmoil were spurring an increase in gun and ammo sales, a score of other news outlets have published their takes on the topic.
The Salt Lake Tribune got there on Nov. 6 ("Election Triggers Upsurge in Military-Like Firearms Sales"), the New York Times on Nov. 7 ("On Concerns Over Gun Control, Gun Sales Are Up"), the Associated Press ("Fears of Democrat Crackdown Lead to Gun Sales Boom") and Reuters on Nov. 8 ("Obama Win Triggers Run on Guns in Many Stores"), the Kansas City Star on Nov. 9 ("Election's Outcome Triggers Record Sales at Gun Shops"), the Anchorage Daily News on Nov. 10 ("Armed and Nervous in Alaska"), FoxNews.com ("Gun Owners Stockpiling Over Fear of Democratic Weapon Bans") and CNN.com on Nov. 11 ("Gun Sales Surge After Obama's Election"), the Chicago Tribune ("Obama Win Triggers Run on Guns") and the Globe and Mail on Nov. 12 ("Obama Win Spurs U.S. Gun Sales Boom"). And that's just a partial list.
The foundation upon which these outlets build their stories is solid: The primary measurement of gun purchases shows that sales are rising this year. Federal law requires licensed gun dealers to submit background check requests of all purchasers to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System. The Post reports that "there were 8.4 million background checks from Jan. 1 to Sept. 28, compared with 7.7 million in the same period last year," which is a 9 percent increase.
It sounds scary, but the 2008 year-to-date increase doesn't tell the whole story. The first full year of the background check system was 1999, when 8.6 million background checks were conducted. For the next four years, background checks bubbled (PDF, Page 5) under 8 million annually and didn't break above 8 million again until in 2004. In 2007, the number of applications was essentially the same as in 1999 (8,658,000 vs. 8,621,000), which means that there was no growth in the number of gun sales over almost a decade. Considered inside the context of a decade's worth of background check data and a growing population, the 9 percent year-to-date increase doesn't seem very significant. (Nota bene: These days, 1.6 percent of gun applications are denied each year, translating into no gun sale.)
Perceived increases in gun sales tend to make news while perceived decreases do not, a realization I came to when I failed to find evidence in Nexis of any publication making a big deal out of the years that background checks fell below 8 million (2000-2003).
If all 8.6 million background checks in 2008 were for first-time buyers, one could make the potentially chilling case that growing numbers of citizens are bearing arms. But that's not very likely based on established survey data. Ownership of most of the nation's estimated 200 million guns is concentrated in relatively few handsaccording to a recent article in the journal Injury Prevention, 48 percent of gun owners reported owning more than four firearms. A similar data point collected by the National Institute of Justice (PDF, Page 2) states that of "gun owners in 1994, 10 million individuals owned 105 million guns, while the remaining 87 million guns were dispersed among 34 million other owners."
This year's uptick in buyers must reflect some new gun owners, but if past surveys are a good guide, surely most of these buyers are repeat buyers. This means that the well-armed are probably getting better-armeda point none of the recent news stories makes.
Further tamping down the fears of the nation's anti-gun nuts are data compiled by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. NORC found that gun ownership in the United States has been falling since 1977 (PDF, Page 11), when 54 percent of households reported owning a gun, compared with 34.5 percent in 2006. More good news for anti-gun nuts: According to the Department of Justice, nonfatal firearm-related violent crimes are down sharply since 1993, and nonfatal firearm-related violent victimization rates are also down since 1994. (Both rates turned up slightly in 2005 but remained low.) Crimes committed with firearms peaked in 1993 and stabilized at late-1980s levels.
Several news outlets (AP, the Anchorage Daily News, CNN.com, and the Kansas City Star) interviewed gun dealers who claimed to be posting record sales. Placed in context, that assertion wilts. A study (PDF) by the Violence Policy Center finds that the number of U.S. gun dealers declined from 250,000 in 1994 to 50,000 in 2007. Granted, many of the original 250,000 dealers were small-timers, moving small numbers of guns, who left the trade because of the cost and hassle of increased regulation. But if gun sales over time remain static while the number of gun sellers is plunging, wouldn't you expect individual dealers to post increased sales? So take those record sales with a grain of salt.
To be fair to the press horde, some sort of "Obama effect" does exist. During the week of Nov. 3-9, the FBI received 374,000 background requests, "a nearly 49 percent increase over the same period in 2007," CNN.com reports. Anecdotes collected in some of the news stories indicate that some buyers are keen on buying so-called "assault weapons," which were banned from 1994 until 2004.
Many gun enthusiasts worry that the Obama administration and Democratic Congress will reinstitute the ban and pass other restrictive legislation. Although Obama supports "common sense" gun laws, his idea of what constitutes common sense differs from that of most gun owners. Consider:
The Chicago Tribune reports that as "an Illinois state legislator [Obama] voted to support a ban on semiautomatic assault weapons and tighter restrictions on all firearms. He has said in the past that he opposes allowing gun owners to carry concealed weapons."
The AP reports that as a U.S. senator, "Obama voted to leave gun-makers and dealers open to lawsuits."
According to the Anchorage Daily News, "the pro-gun control Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence endorsed Obama and called his win Tuesday 'a major victory.' "If a genuine run on guns exists, whose fault is it? Blame Obama and his running mate, Joe Biden, a well-known "assault weapon" foe. Paradoxically, if Obama wanted to end the purported run on guns, he could do so by opposing any new regulations.
I'd love to see a spate of stories exploring that line.
I fully expect to win the Stephen Hunter Second Amendment Award for this article and for the judgment to be so overwhelming that they retire it forever. Send news of other journalism prizes I qualify for to firstname.lastname@example.org. Thanks to readers Allen Flanigan and Eric Verkerke for their nudging. (E-mail may be quoted by name in "The Fray," Slate's readers' forum; in a future article; or elsewhere unless the writer stipulates otherwise. Permanent disclosure: Slate is owned by the Washington Post Co.)
Track my errors: This hand-built RSS feed will ring every time Slate runs a "Press Box" correction. For e-mail notification of errors in this specific column, type the word guns in the subject head of an e-mail message, and send it to email@example.com.
^ Wow, I'm really surprised.
Over the last few years, there are a *number* of progressives who have realized how well gun control "works" and have changed their opinion.
I actually think it's something that Obama knows and that *some* of our congressmen understand.
Not to make it a coming-out party, but I'm a pretty socially liberal guy, and my friends primarily consist of progressives and liberals. Gun control is *not* on any of their radar, and they seem to have no issue with my position or hobby. They only appreciate that Im in the open about it and Im willing to show anyone trigger locks and gun safes before their kids come over to play. As I posted in another area, I still have more to do to protect my (and others) kids, but for these folks, logic won the day and they have no issues with the current levels of controls on firearms.
The only slightly "iffy" conversation started when a gal mentioned "I think they should ban assault weapons. Who needs THOSE?".
I said "I don't need them, but I own them and enjoy them. They are completely safe and will not fall into anyone elses hands." She seemed suprised, but not adversarial.
"But you can kill so many people with those."
Thats when her husband answered "And you heard of a crime committed with an assault weapon rather than the typical $100 Saturday night special?"
"No, I guess I havent."
On to the next subject, but she seemed genuinely open minded about it, even surrounded by noone but progressives and liberals. She didn't "yeild" because it was embarrasing or anything. This is a marked difference from the 1980s when Miami Vice and the perception of Drug Cartels with Uzis had everyone afraid of black rifles.
I really do think gun control is not going to be an issue Obama starts with, if he has any pragmatic view into the American people, which it appears he does. For others here, we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what happens. I certainly wont blame you for buying more guns. I want to buy more myself... just for other reasons
One of the biggest challenges of this site is to make sure people realize that NWFA is not a conservative or liberal site, but rather a site where both sides can come together and focus on the single issue of gun rights and ownership. This has been very difficult, but I think people are starting to understand and either realize that anyone pro-gun, no matter their other political beliefs, can help our cause -or- they're just keeping it to themselves. While I prefer the former, the latter is fine as well.
I'm hoping you're right about Obama and gun rights, but I'm still holding my breath. Actions (his voting record) speak far louder than words
"I believe in common-sense gun safety laws, and I believe in the second amendment," Obama said at a news conference. "Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear. I said that throughout the campaign. I haven't indicated anything different during the transition. I think people can take me at my word."
He said we can take his word
Oh god this is too much. They really do think we are morons. Sorry "O", I didn't vote for you. I don't drink the kool aid.