obama and guns

[Toxic6]

It's just "estimates"....but considering how many people I have met in my lifetime who "don't own guns" yet had one hidden in their wall, under their bed, in their tool shed, etc. I stand by my argument. The numbers are always worked to the benefit of whoever paid for them (IMO) - there are an unknown number of guns in this country, period. All they can do is base estimates off sales records.

 

[JGRuby]

To me it is not wether a gun is owned by a family but how that family feels about guns in society. This is where the media is doing our rights a disservice.

James Ruby

 

[fd15k]

Do you have a reliable source for this data?

There are several sources for that information, including FBI and US Census data. Problem is all of the numbers are based
on studies and surveys.

Privately owned firearms in the U.S.: Approaching 300 million, including nearly 100 million handguns. The number of firearms rises over 4 million annually.
Gun owners in the U.S.: 70-80 million; 40-45 million own handguns
American households that have firearms: 40-45%
Hunting licenses sold annually: 14.5 million
NRA State Associations and Local Clubs: 12,000
NRA Target Shooting Tournaments annually: 11,000
NRA Certified Instructors: 73,000
Number of Individuals Attending an NRA Firearm Course Annually: Over 800,000
NRA Law Enforcement Firearm Instructors: 12,000

<broken link removed>

 

[Kevatc]

I'm struggling with F&F and Castaway being seen as an erosion of 2A; that struck me more as a blatant misappropriation by ATF and AG Holder than anything. True that the President put Holder in office, but I'm having difficulty linking that to an overt act by Obama to undercut 2A.

Granted he has an anti-gun record but as someone else pointed out he was representing his constituents of Illinois. Could he have tried to extend his apparent philosophy on the 2A as POTUS? Sure. However, as POTUS he has done exactly NOTHING in so far as 2A rights go. My personal feeling is that when he was a new POTUS some 60ish Democrat Congressmen said don't mess with the 2A. Since then the House and Senate have become more conservative and the SCOTUS looks to remain so at least in the short term. I honestly don't anticipate Obama waisting any political capital on what is sure to be a sure losing issue for his administration and I doubt if he would want to set the stage for a sure Democrat defeat after him by pursuing anti-2A positions.

 

[SonicBlue03]

I agree. But there are many strong opinions to the contrary, so I'd very much like to hear what specifically as part of the 2A we're likely to see infringed on in the next four years. So far, no one has really declared an answer to the question which makes me think that no one is really convinced anything will change.

 

[Kevatc]

I agree. But there are many strong opinions to the contrary, so I'd very much like to hear what specifically as part of the 2A we're likely to see infringed on in the next four years. So far, no one has really declared an answer to the question which makes me think that no one is really convinced anything will change.

I agree with you now and in response to your quoted post as well. Just was elaborating is all. Like you I am waiting to hear of any credible thoughts on future 2A infringements that are intelligent rather than just mindless fear mongering regurgitation.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Due to the tremendous number of weapons already in the public's hands I feel that any new legislation might be in the form of huge taxes on ammo or other methods of making ammunition difficult or significantly more expensive to obtain. I know this has been discussed in the past and dismissed, but it is a distinct possibility. As is the requirement for micro-tracing of bullets, etc.

 

[fd15k]

Due to the tremendous number of weapons already in the public's hands I feel that any new legislation might be in the form of huge taxes on ammo or other methods of making ammunition difficult or significantly more expensive to obtain. I know this has been discussed in the past and dismissed, but it is a distinct possibility. As is the requirement for micro-tracing of bullets, etc.

No worries, it will be seen coming from a hundred miles away. We will make a good run to Cabelas, it will easily last four years

 

[SonicBlue03]

There is a high likelihood that the next Prez will have the privilege of appointing at least one if not two Supreme Court Justices. Couple that with the Obama's clear record being anti-gun, and his current two appointed SCJ's being anti-gun, we can expect more of the same if Obama is re-elected.
I'm not willing to be a passive participant to. "see what might happen...". Nip the liar Prez in the bud, and do not vote for the idiot.

So which Justices do you see retiring? Scalia hasn't shown signs of slowing down yet. Kennedy? Maybe. Ginsburg or Breyer? Both of those were Clinton appointees so the net net is that at worst nothing would necessarily change.

Since Justices have to be confirmed, your bigger concern should be the Congressional turnover if Congress returns to Democratic control. And really, your anger should be at the current sitting Congress for making enough missteps this past year to have the lowest approval rating in tracked history.

 

[SonicBlue03]

My response was as germane to 2A as yours; you're saying that the appointment of new Justices by the President puts 2A at risk. I asked you which Justices you think will retire that potentially change the landscape. I then remind you that Presidential nominations must go through a vetting process to prevent a President from carte blanche loading up SCOTUS to push a personal agenda - in this case a perceived anti-2A bias. The bigger risk -highlighted - is Congressional turnover. That's not due to Presidential action but stupid politics. So when you put the blame on the President for Justices, you're unwilling to spread that accountability to Legislative which doesn't make sense to me.

My original question: "What do you think the President will enact to negatively impact 2A in his second term?" Your responses are, "he hates 2A and will lie, cheat, and steal to undermine 2A!" That roughly translates to, "I don't know."

And that's an okay answer. If it's based on an unknown fear, just say that. If you have something specific, please share it. If you're just confused and don't have a good answer, silence is also perfectly appropriate. My question is legitimate. If you have insight into some specific parts of 2A that you know will be attacked, share with the rest of us so we can engage in an honest discussion and debate on the merits.

 

[Gaius]

Once again... I do not believe that a vote for Obama is a benign vote when it comes to the 2A.
It is not.

I do not trust him, as he either is a liar today, or was a liar when he compiled his anti-gun record.

A vote for Obama is a vote Against the 2A plain and simple.

I typed this into an online translator and this is what I got: "I don't know."

 

[slingshot1943]

George Carlin is a moron.

 

[slingshot1943]

If this is supposed to be a clean forum, why do we have filthy links to Carlin?

 

[FourTeeFive]

My question is legitimate. If you have insight into some specific parts of 2A that you know will be attacked, share with the rest of us so we can engage in an honest discussion and debate on the merits.

None of us know what Obama or any other anti-gun politician is thinking. However, we do know that given the opportunity they will seek to ban guns in one way or another. Obama has a clear voting record indicating that. Why is that so confusing?

 

[fd15k]

None of us know what Obama or any other anti-gun politician is thinking. However, we do know that given the opportunity they will seek to ban guns in one way or another. Obama has a clear voting record indicating that. Why is that so confusing?

Take California for example - one of the most restrictive states. Largely due to the fact there is no 2A in the state Constitution, and legally they were not bound by the 2A in the federal Constitution. It took years for them to get where they are now, and not only they haven't managed to ban guns in their entirety, but things are getting better as we speak. Given such evidence, it's really hard to envision a significant successful attack on 2A by a politician who will occupy office just for some Four years. And even if he does indeed appoint some unfriendly justices, the court can only do so much, and only upon cases presented to them. The ultimate power is always in people's hands.

 

[SonicBlue03]

None of us know what Obama or any other anti-gun politician is thinking. However, we do know that given the opportunity they will seek to ban guns in one way or another. Obama has a clear voting record indicating that. Why is that so confusing?

Your two statements completely conflict one another. Let's review:

"None of us know what Obama or any other anti-gun politician is thinking."
"We know that given the opportunity they will seek to ban guns in one way or another."

You either know or you don't. And if you don't know (which your first statement eludes to) then you're reacting out of fear of the unknown. But if you do know as your second sentence implies then you should have an idea of what he might realistically go for.

I get it - there's a whole lot of you that don't like the President for one reason or another. A lot of you are masking that dislike with, "he's coming for our guns!" I'm challenging that because I've seen nothing that indicates he's going to "get my guns" or that he'd be successful in imposing some sort of ban/restriction that is meaningful. But if there are some specific items you can point to that indicate he's leaning a particular way to impose restrictions or bans now is the time to share it with all of us.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Your two statements completely conflict one another. Let's review:

"None of us know what Obama or any other anti-gun politician is thinking."
"We know that given the opportunity they will seek to ban guns in one way or another."

You either know or you don't.

Will you agree that we don't know the SPECIFICS of what he and others are thinking?

Will you agree that his political voting record is anti-gun?

 

[FourTeeFive]

Since some people seem to not agree that Obama is anti-gun, I thought this was worth repeating. Thank you to Gunfixx for the details:

ACT: Barack Obama voted for an Illinois State Senate bill to ban and confiscate “assault weapons,” but the bill was so poorly crafted, it would have also banned most semi-auto and single and double barrel shotguns commonly used by sportsmen.18

FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry.1

FACT: Barack Obama wants to re-impose the failed and discredited Clinton Gun Ban.15

FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.3

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a 500% increase in the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition.9

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a complete ban on handgun ownership.2

FACT: Barack Obama supports local gun bans in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and other cities.4

FACT: Barack Obama voted to uphold local gun bans and the criminal prosecution of people who use firearms in self-defense.5

FACT: Barack Obama supports gun owner licensing and gun registration.6

FACT: Barack Obama refused to sign a friend-of-the-court Brief in support of individual Second Amendment rights in the Heller case.

FACT: Barack Obama opposes Right to Carry laws.7

FACT: Barack Obama was a member of the Board of Directors of the Joyce Foundation, the leading source of funds for anti-gun organizations and “research.”8

FACT: Barack Obama supported a proposal to ban gun stores within 5 miles of a school or park, which would eliminate almost every gun store in America.9

FACT: Barack Obama voted not to notify gun owners when the state of Illinois did records searches on them.10

FACT: Barack Obama voted against a measure to lower the Firearms Owners Identification card age minimum from 21 to 18, a measure designed to assist young people in the military.11

FACT: Barack Obama favors a ban on standard capacity magazines.12

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory micro-stamping.13

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory waiting periods.2

FACT: Barack Obama supports repeal of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits information on gun traces collected by the BATFE from being used in reckless lawsuits against firearm dealers and manufacturers.14

FACT: Barack Obama supports one-gun-a-month handgun purchase restrictions.16

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on inexpensive handguns.9

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on the resale of police issued firearms, even if the money is going to police departments for replacement equipment.9

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory firearm training requirements for all gun owners and a ban on gun ownership for persons under the age of 21.9

1. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 219, July 29, 2005. (U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote)

2. Independent Voters of Illinois/Independent Precinct Organization general candidate questionnaire, Sept. 9, 1996. The responses on this survey were described in “Obama had greater role on liberal survey,” Politico, March 31, 2008. (Obama had greater role on liberal survey - Kenneth P. Vogel - POLITICO.com)

3. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 217, Kennedy amendment July 29, 2005. (U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote)

4. David Wright, Ursula Fahy and Sunlen Miller, "Obama: 'Common Sense Regulation' On Gun Owners' Rights," ABC News' "Political Radar" Blog, <broken link removed>, 2/15/08. ( <broken link removed> )

5. Illinois Senate, SB 2165, March 25, 2004, vote 20 and May 25, 2004, vote 3.

6. “Fact Check: No News In Obama's Consistent Record.” Obama ’08, December 11, 2007. ( <broken link removed> )

7. “Candidates' gun control positions may figure in Pa. vote,” Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Wednesday, April 2, 2008, and "Keyes, Obama Are Far Apart On Guns," Chicago Tribune, 9/15/04. ( <broken link removed> )

8. 1998 Joyce Foundation Annual Report, p. 7.

9. “Obama and Gun Control,” The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (The Volokh Conspiracy - Obama and Gun Control:)

10. Illinois Senate, May 5, 2002, SB 1936 Con., vote 26.

11. Illinois Senate, March 25, 2003, SB 2163, vote 18.

12. “Clinton, Edwards, Obama on gun control,” Radio Iowa, Sunday, April 22, 2007. ( <broken link removed> )

13. Chicago Tribune blogs, “Barack Obama: NIU Shootings call for action,” February 15, 2008, ( <broken link removed> )

14. Barack Obama campaign website: “As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment . . .” ( <broken link removed> .)

15. Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes (Barack Obama on Gun Control and Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes) Oct 21, 2004.

16. Illinois Senate, May 16, 2003, HB 2579, vote 34.

17. United States Senate vote 245, September 29, 2005 and vote 2, January 31, 2006 and Saddleback Forum, August 16, 2008.

18. Illinois Senate Judiciary Committee, March 13, 2003. To see the vote tally go to: <broken link removed> .

 

[SonicBlue03]

I will agree that his voting AS A SENATOR was inline with traditional non-2A. I'm talking Presidential efforts. I've not seen any anti-2A legislation that he's pushed or supported as President.

I will agree that many of you have nothing empirical from his current term to point that he plans to undermine 2A. Speculation that "something might happen" is just fear mongering. If you have something specific - current - to hang your hat on, great. But no one seems to.

Already had this discussion (or tried to) with Gunfixx. He set his sights firmly behind himself. He also had zero answer.

 

[FourTeeFive]

@Gunfixx - in your posts you've made clear your concern of the President's history. I'm unclear specifically what you think he will change in the next four years if re-elected. What item or items do you absolutely think he will change/go after in the next cycle?

You seem to present a Straw Man argument with your insistence of the question "what specifically will Obama change".

My question to you, as a gun owner, is if you are ok with voting for Obama considering his anti-gun voting record?

I'm not asking what you think someone else might do. Why are you defending someone who is not defending your gun rights?