Poll: NWFA and the Finicum shooting: where does the membership stand?

[ZigZagZeke]

From the page 98 video analysis:
"Finicum brandished firearms and made threats for weeks.
Finicum ignored lawful orders to exit a vehicle.
Finicum evaded a vehicular stop.
Finicum RAMMED A ROADBLOCK.
Finicum ran around and refused orders to get down.
Finicum looked like he was going for a gun. Three different times. Hands up, hands down, hands up, hands down, hands up, hands down, bang."

I'm gonna add one to that list: Finicum wrote a bad western novel about a government-hating rancher. The novel ended with the quick-draw rancher gunning down 3 evil government employees with his pistol. Okay.

"Finicum brandished firearms and made threats for weeks" OK. So what? Talk is cheap.
"Finicum ignored lawful orders to exit a vehicle" Without sound how do we know that?
"Finicum evaded a vehicular stop" Again, without sound we don't know why. Was he being shot at?
"Finicum RAMMED A ROADBLOCK" No, actually he didn't. I watched the video. He tried NOT to ram the roadblock.
"Finicum ran around and refused orders to get down" Without sound you are once again assuming facts not in evidence. And at no time did he "run around".
"Finicum looked like he was going for a gun. Three different times. Hands up, hands down, hands up, hands down, hands up, hands down, bang." I will agree he "looked like" he might be going for a gun, or he "looked like" he was losing his balance, or he "looked like" he was reaching to cover a wound.

For all the pseudo-logic and debate rules you quote, you consistently violate them yourself. You use pejorative characterizations to shade your "facts" to fit your prejudiced position. You come here and start telling us who we are and what we think with no history of your own (9 posts). You argue the government's case very effectively, while at the same time telling us we are ignorant fools and that you don't care what we think. Your true allegiances are exposed by your terminology. If you want a perfect example of a thinly veiled ad hominem attack start with your own paragraph #9 and go on for the next few paragraphs. Clumsy character assassination won't change anyone's minds.

As for your statistical analysis, it doesn't work when you assume that everyone here is an "ignorant redneck". Some of us have college degrees, law school, medical school, etc. That usually requires an understanding of research methods and statistical analysis. But you wouldn't be aware of that since you just popped in here to crap on our floor without so much as a "Howdy, folks!". It's quite possible that instead of 3600 responses you might get a valid result with 360 or 36 responses. It all depends on how reliable you want your result to be, and from your diatribe above it would seem that you don't care about reliability because you've already decided who's right and who's wrong. My ignore list is about to get a little longer, I'm afraid.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I'm not going off half cocked. Nor am I going to believe "eye witnesses" when I haven't seen them say anything.
Please post your source?

And about "eye witnesses"
How many witnesses said poor Mike Brown died because the Officer stood over him and assassinated him? Then came out and said they disn't see anything or came out after the shooting occured.

Again please post video of the witnesses saying that this happened, or the police saying they fired.
And not some written piece from a "reputable" online article.

In the full unedited video I saw no shots fired. I'm not going to say it didn't happen. But I have yet to see proof.

Post my source? Do you read any of the threads here about this event? The videos containing audio testimony from the two eyewitnesses who were in the vehicles are all over NWFA. How did you manage to miss them? Your confirmation bias is showing.

 

[etrain16]

Good post. Agreed. Now wait for the horse crap youtube links to appear... probably already have. Or the "testimony" of the other people in the vehicle... I seriously believe these hot headed supporters of the bundy crew are of the same sort that believe that we didn't land on the moon or that roswell is full of aliens and spaceships.

You're riding the line of violating the rules on personal attacks as your buddy up above. Perhaps you could both use a refresher in what it means when people have differing viewpoints? A reminder that people are allowed to have opinions that differ from your own?

I may not have the ability to know everything about this situation like some seem to, so I'll reserve my final judgment, once again, pending additional information. What is so hard about "innocent until proven guilty"?

If you need a reminder of the rules you agreed to when you signed on here:

2. Personal attacks are prohibited.

• Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream. An example could be "you're a vegetarian, so what would you know about hunting?".

 

[41Slinger]

Why all the beatchin, the pole is leaning towards a good shoot so far, or maybe there's an agenda ? By the way I voted for Lavoy and will stand by that vote until I see the missing 4 mins of the first stop and arrest of Bryan Payne. I'll argue with you when you don't ask questions like "where did you get that info", it's all there in the 116 pages of the Harney County thread in off topics, might want to read it "all" plus look around at MSM, Youtube and any other info you can get to cross compare as I have. I don't disagree that there were some bad decisions made by these folks but so far they've done nothing worth being killed for. JMHO and I'm entitled to that.

 

[Member 5605]

Option #3
I cast no personal opinions written anywhere until all video footage is available and released unedited. Then and only then should I make my views based upon knowing/seeing everything for myself.


************
What we can say is and discuss is if their actions prior to the event were the wisest and best courses of action and if the words that were spoken from a small armed group were the wisest

Edit:
I was engaged this past weekend with my father on this topic. He is probably a left leaning gun owning democrat. I prefer not to touch politics with him. I quit when he stated "there is no reason anyone needs a 30 round clip for an assault rifle".

But we engaged in a discussion in his living room and while I may disagree with some of the actions and words said I will also clarify that their view to peacefully protest (didn't say occupy a federal building), is protected by their first amendment. I also understand that the right of the people to keep and bear arms is afforded to us by the 2nd amendment which allows a leftist such as my father who believes a single bubblegum rifle is all that's needed to keep his forearm collection in his closet in a cabinet. Where we must differentiate ourselves is not if the shooting was justified because all of that is the icing on the cake. Let's talk about the individual components that made this what it is. From both sides.

So I sat and discussed this very topic without wavering or giving up any of my views. What was expressed is that we can sympathize with a group of individuals, that does not mean we support them 100% and see them as our god where they can do no wrong. To err is to be human.

At the end of the conversation my wife who was in the kitchen playing scrabble with the boys and my dads wife (a former member of the government offices for the department of the interior in some fashion) finally took a breath and has to tell me how she thought everything was handled well. Dad is and can be very accusational so just like dealing with him, dealing with each other in this board is required that we all keep a cool head and use logic and NOT emotions. Make your opinions when all facts are known. I am 34 and I hope the years down the road conversations like this with my dad and members on here can strengthen the 2nd amendment community.
/End edit

 

[NWPROJECTS]

I don't know how many here following up on this thread have heard this account.. Not sure if this is even really Shawna cox? Who really knows..
Here you go!

 

[clearconscience]

So as they were filling this car full of lead how is it nobody was shot?
Reports say that Ryan Bundy was hurt by shrapnel from the 2-3 flash bangs they through at the vehicle.

Even if they were firing on the vehicle would they not have had cause? They were running from arrest, fleeing, and tried to blow through a barricade. Almost running down a police officer.

People are far too quick to call this a conspiracy.
This guy made every bad move in the book.


This is no different than any ther police shooting, and by calling it a conspiracy and calling it murder we are no different than the hoards of Hands up don't shoot crowd or BLM.
Just a bunch of BS to hide from the fact this guy made the decisions that led to his death.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I said this with Mike Brown and I say it now with Levoy Finicum.

 

[U201491]

This was 100% a
Murder/Assassination
Stop judging by the MSM propaganda and read the history of the case and learn the truth.


Lean the Facts, and lord knows there are many things
out there thhat claim to be facts, but
learn from the people that were there.
And remember this man had not ever even had a traffic ticket.
His only "crime" was standing for the constitution for YOU
and others in this country, and the powers to be could not have that.

"Learn about the man before you call judgment
or judgment may call you."

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIVPq7ybILJnY0B2aqpaXNA


And from his daughters

 

[Charliehorse]

The status quo for the last 5+ years is that they err on taking a life .

Conspiracy theory? lol
Are you forgetting Portland PO received the wrath of DOJ for the 'status quo' of unjustified murders you cite?

 

[clearconscience]

Lol

Yeah your right the DOJ is on top of it!

 

[clearconscience]

Truth is none of us know jack squat, myself including (probably more so). None of us were there.
And all we have to go on is BS from one side and more BS from the other side both of which are trying to further an agenda.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Stop judging by the MSM propaganda and read the history of the case and learn the truth.

CNN is running this story as lead as of a few minutes ago. "Witness: Oregon occupier shot by police did not reach for gun" though they do try to push the other side of the story.

 

[clearconscience]

So her account of what happened contradicts shauna cox's story.

 

[U201491]

Two witnesses already testified to what happened and the only one that has not that was there is Ryan Bundy and they are not allowing him to have a voice at all.
And the thing people forget is they were all shot at at the first stop without provocation and that is why they took off. Seems no one cares about facts. Just agenda.
The voice that matters can't say their piece because he iis dead with 9 rounds in him contrary to the police saying they shot only 3 times.

 

[U201491]

CNN is running this story as lead as of a few minutes ago. "Witness: Oregon occupier shot by police did not reach for gun" though they do try to push the other side of the story.

I have yet to see one truth come out of the MSM without a dozen lies or mistruths alongside and surrounding it to date.

 

[nvs]

In the police training handbook does it state to use deadly force if one leaves a traffic stop? I would think the police would presume everybody is armed until proven otherwise. Was the roadblock put up after LaVoy fled or was it set up ahead of time? Why close 50 miles of highway for a traffic stop?

How come they didn't shoot OJ? He ran from the police and he was innocent?

 

[SCracer1]

Everyone here has probably heard the term (guilt by omission). I don't claim to know all the facts but it seems to me that the OSP and FBI have virtually unlimited resources, I.E. body cams, dash cams, etc. Does anyone think it is a little suspect that the only video posted was from 1000' up with no audio? Does anyone think it is a little suspicious that you don't see any muzzle flashes or muzzle jump on any weapon showing, (edited)? Anybody think that it is a little suspicious that nobody has seen the truck? Any body think that it is a little suspicious that after the truck was cleared that LEO's fired another 100 rounds or so at it to obfuscate Shawna Cox and Victoria Sharps statements that they were fired upon 100's of times? Sorry if I repeat myself, but I wanted to stress the importance of guilt by omission. To me this stinks to high hell! If anyone who reads this is a forensic video specialist please see if this video can be analyzed for tampering. If anyone has access to voice stress analysis equipment can you analyze the statements made at the press conference after action. Thank you.

 

[Stomper]

What amuses me is how the OP gets all riled up because more than a few of us REFUSE to get in line and pick "yes or no", "on or off", "left or right"... DO IT!!

Then the OP (with a little help from his "friend") attempts to force-fit us "pegs" that won't play into the two "holes" that have been carved out.

It reeks like a typical progressive trying to force everyone and everything into their paradigm of perfection...

 

[PaulB47]

So as they were filling this car full of lead how is it nobody was shot?

Remember when the Keystone Kops were chasing Chris Dorner, and they encountered a truck that kinda sorta looked like his? The two ladies inside each took one hit, one in the back and another in the hand. There were 102 bullet holes in the truck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt#Truck_misidentifications

Just standard LEO incompetence...

Does anyone think it is a little suspect that the only video posted was from 1000' up with no audio?

When they took a bulldozer to the Branch Davidian building, and somehow "lost" the door with the bullet holes in it, I finally figured out the score where the federal government is concerned.

 

[Powderman]

It was not a traffic stop. It was a planned arrest stop. What was he supposed to do when the cops started shooting at the first stop without provocation? He did what anyone would do, he ran, and they continued shooting at him while he fled toward the roadblock ambush.

Do you know this to be factual?