Not unexpected, but when big box stores stop selling guns, they often give their logbooks/etc. to the ATF

[The Heretic]

Signs Suggest Walmart to Turn Over Customer 4473 Gun Records to ATF

A leaked ATF internal conference call suggests Walmart is transferring a portion of its customer sales records for firearms purchases to the ATF

www.ammoland.com

I know some small FFLs that have said their records were lost in a fire/etc. when they went out of business (yes, I literally know one FFL who said that would happen, and it probably did), but the big ones, like Walmart or Dicks? That data usually goes to the ATF.

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[bearcountrygun]

The batfe requires FFL holders to send all of their records in when they stop being a dealer

 

[The Heretic]

The batfe requires FFL holders to send all of their records in when they stop being a dealer

Unless they are lost or destroyed.

 

[Jonnyuma]

Unfortunately, somebody is gonna have to get caught-up in the dragnet, prosecuted and convicted for this to make it into the court system. Even then, it's unlikely to make it to SCOTUS as the federal bueracracy is adept at covering it's own tracks.
"Oh, no. We didn't use an illegal registration scheme to solve this case. Just good old fashioned detective work".

Canada had gun registration and managed to never solve a single homicide using it. Not one. Only process crimes, paperwork SNAFUs and tax issues. Oh... and easy confiscation when the time came.

 

[TTSX]

Because walmart is DEFINITELY gonna destroy their millions upon millions of 4473s from thousands of stores.

I'm sure the ATF already knows every single gun I purchased, by serial number. Do I like it, no, but that's just how our massive, overpowered and overfunded gov is.

 

[nehalemguy]

This has been going on for decades. I remember when Larry's went out of business in the mid 90's. We boxed up decades worth of log books and 4473s and hauled them to the BATF offices in Portland. They are probably still sitting there in some long forgotten storage space.

-E-

 

[The Heretic]

This has been going on for decades. I remember when Larry's went out of business in the mid 90's. We boxed up decades worth of log books and 4473s and hauled them to the BATF offices in Portland. They are probably still sitting there in some long forgotten storage space.

-E-

The ATF has a big backlog of records, but they are currently putting them into a computer and have for a while. Handwritten records are not easily transcribed. A while back they were even going around to smaller FFLs and copying their log books. Big to do about that.

 

[CountryGent]

The batfe requires FFL holders to send all of their records in when they stop being a dealer

And that has been the case for a very long time now. (One notable exception is 03 FFL C&R licensees.)

While it is true one cannot turn in records that were destroyed, "making false statements" is a crime with very serious penalties.

They are probably still sitting there in some long forgotten storage space.

The ATF investigator who came out when I obtained an 01 FFL said some to that effect. He asked me if I ever saw the film Raiders of the Lost Ark, to which I replied in the affirmative, and he said the building the houses the records looked like the government storage facility seen at the end of said film.

I have no way of confirming the veracity of of that description, of course, but it isn't the first time I've seen/heard described in such a manner.

 

[Member 34319]

Now, most stores have computerized 4473s, and are required to use the Oregon state BCG portal which is an online portal, where your name and information is attached to a serial number. Likely stored in a cloud and easily accessed.

So how does any of this matter?

It doesn't.

4473s are in fact a da facto registration.

 

[Wood Worker]

I think It's too bad that you can't turn your log book into nitrocellulose before surrendering it.

 

[The Heretic]

Now, most stores have computerized 4473s, and are required to use the Oregon state BCG portal which is an online portal, where your name and information is attached to a serial number. Likely stored in a cloud and easily accessed.

So how does any of this matter?

It doesn't.

4473s are in fact a da facto registration.

Yes and no.

Yes in states like Calif., Orygun and Washington where almost all transfers require a BGC run thru the state system.

But in a "free state" where BGCs are not required for private transfers, then no as you don't need to fill out a 4473 for those transfers, and as you can sell any firearm later to a person who can legally buy it, then the only way the gov can prove you have said firearm is to find it in your possession.

 

[User 1234]

They don't have to find it in your possession. They follow the trail from FFL to FFL and then when that transferee doesn't have it, they ask them who they sold it to. Subpoena that person's emails and texts, Armslist, NWFA and Gunbroker message records, etc. Not a perfect system but they can find quite a few firearms even when the 4473 trail goes cold.

 

[MarinersFan51]

I just sorta assumed that every gun I've purchased via 4473 is effectively registered to me. There's not a hard "firearm registry" per se but there is enough of a paper trail to create one

 

[billdeserthills]

Because walmart is DEFINITELY gonna destroy their millions upon millions of 4473s from thousands of stores.

I'm sure the ATF already knows every single gun I purchased, by serial number. Do I like it, no, but that's just how our massive, overpowered and overfunded gov is.

Especially if you've ever bought enough handguns or long guns to trigger a multiple report (2 or more handguns or if in the 4 border states, 2 or more long guns) in that case, the FBI also gets a notification

 

[JeremyK]

I just sorta assumed that every gun I've purchased via 4473 is effectively registered to me. There's not a hard "firearm registry" per se but there is enough of a paper trail to create one

This. If there has been a background check and a 4473 done, that effectively ties that gun to you, and therefore, .gov knows you have it.

 

[The Heretic]

They don't have to find it in your possession. They follow the trail from FFL to FFL and then when that transferee doesn't have it, they ask them who they sold it to. Subpoena that person's emails and texts, Armslist, NWFA and Gunbroker message records, etc. Not a perfect system but they can find quite a few firearms even when the 4473 trail goes cold.

Only if it goes thru another FFL or is found in the possession of someone else.

I would guess there are at least a few people here who have firearms that are "cold" now, not having any paperwork on them for decades, and the people they bought them from probably can't remember who they sold them to, or the people before them. Before a decade or so ago people would buy guns privately and/or at gun shows without "paper" - the gun maybe going thru ten owners before winding up with someone who hung onto it if the way people buy and sell guns here is any indication of how frequently guns are bought and sold.

That is why the gun control people want the government tracking every transfer now - it was way too easy for a gun to get "lost" once in private possession as very few of us remember who we sold to or who we bought from.

 

[Mike7b]

I live in a free state. Go to the gun show and see something I like, start pulling out Benjamin's, when we've agreed on the price, I walk out with the gun and he pockets the benji's. No paperwork trail, what you guys have to put up with in cali, Oregon and Washington astounds me.

 

[BrentN]

I live in a free state. Go to the gun show and see something I like, start pulling out Benjamin's, when we've agreed on the price, I walk out with the gun and he pockets the benji's. No paperwork trail, what you guys have to put up with in cali, Oregon and Washington astounds me.

Prepare to be astounded in the next few years.

 

[BillM]

I live in a free state. Go to the gun show and see something I like, start pulling out Benjamin's, when we've agreed on the price, I walk out with the gun and he pockets the benji's. No paperwork trail, what you guys have to put up with in cali, Oregon and Washington astounds me.

Just wait---the blue cancer is already beginning to consume Idaho. I'm actually a bit surprised that Meridian/Boise isn't blue!

 

[User 1234]

Nobody expected Arizona to vote in two anti 2A senators and for Biden. Got to encourage the former San Francisco tech workers to abandon their former voting patterns.