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I keep a small box of black contractor bags in my target shooting kit that goes with me out to Tillamook. Every single trip I do my best to fill up a bag and take it back with me. Taking my own trash out is just the tip of the iceberg of garbage I've hauled out of that place. And I don't think I'm special at all among users of this forum. I learned those habits from watching and shooting with others that post here.

I have handed out bags to others on occasion when I see them unloading milk jugs or whatever to shoot and asked them to pack out what they brought in when they are done. Some of these problem folks are not the most reasonable sort and that's about as close as I want to get to an armed confrontation in the middle of the woods when I only have the one first aid kit.

As others have said, if you're reading this, it is unlikely you are part of the problem since the entire point of this thread is information and stewardship of the area. The problem is developing an effective approach to educate the various fudds about the eventual consequences of their poor behavior. If they want to be counted among the ranks of "responsible and law-abiding gun owners" then how they behave in our natural areas is part of that, too. Right now, it doesn't seem like a lot of folks get that.
Agree with the above except that I'm way more pessimistic about education. I have found that there are 3 ways to change behavior: education, incentive, or some sort of limiting access for bad actors (a type of "regulation").

Education works really well and is needed definitely for those folks that will listen. Like u said members of this forum are a good example of that type of shooter. But imo the bad actors don't want to listen and u simply cannot get through to them enough to change their behavior in even the slightest degree.

Some type of incentive, that can possibly work and works really, really well imo for the average person. Incentives imo will still miss the worst ones imo but will get through to more of them than education. The folks like u mentioned who may not think about cleaning up but given an incentive -heck even a trash bag is a sort of "incentive" (a debt, in a sense) will respond to incentives. What I mean by the trash bag is they will feel obligated to use it since u kindly gave it to them. Education will also have an impact with these folks but it's very, very difficult to reach enough of them. Btw the hands on chatting with people like u, cogs, etc ate doing on-site is the single most effective method of education (which u already know I'm sure).

Imo separating the shooters who care, or at least are not trashing the place, from the few bad actors that are there to trash all they can is the only effective method to stop the bad actors from trashing the place. Perhaps a $10 per year permit to trash-no-land or something or other to pay for cleanup costs.

IMO anything that is monetary is going to make those really bad ones go somewhere else to shoot like their uncle's friend's back 40 or wherever. The logistics of limiting access to the bad actors to these public shooting areas I have not thought about at all but bright and dedicated poeple like cogs and his group can probably figure it out I would guess. I have around 25 years experience with this exact same thing (changing behavior) on a different subject matter working with hundreds and hundreds of landowners and local, state, federal agencies, tribes, etc and it's given me a very clear handle on what does and does not work (for WA and OR anyway). 2 cents...
 
Imo separating the shooters who care, or at least are not trashing the place, from the few bad actors that are there to trash all they can is the only effective method to stop the bad actors from trashing the place. Perhaps a $10 per year permit to trash-no-land or something or other to pay for cleanup costs.

IMO anything that is monetary is going to make those really bad ones go somewhere else to shoot like their uncle's friend's back 40 or wherever. The logistics of limiting access to the bad actors to these public shooting areas I have not thought about at all but bright and dedicated poeple like cogs and his group can probably figure it out I would guess. I have around 25 years experience with this exact same thing (changing behavior) on a different subject matter working with hundreds and hundreds of landowners and local, state, federal agencies, tribes, etc and it's given me a very clear handle on what does and does not work (for WA and OR anyway). 2 cents...

I generally agree with all of what you said. I don't think education efforts will fix the worst of the worst, but we can keep them to a very small minority by making sure shooters who have not adopted habits yet adopt the right habits. We can only do that by being annoyingly vocal about the right way to treat the land. Not aggressive, but annoyingly vocal. It's a fine line. :)

I am not opposed to a fee to access the shooting lanes at all, and would happily pay it. If it worked the way we might hope, I think it would absolutely reduce traffic and improve the state of the lanes. There are logistical problems to enforcing a fee, but those could be dealt with pretty easily, I think. I believe the problem will be convincing ODF that reducing traffic is a good idea. From their perspective, the lanes are intended to give dispersed shooters a place to go rather than shooting at random spots in the woods and potentially starting brush fires that turn into forest fires. While the lanes are getting trashed, they are still doing their job from a forest preservation standpoint. I'm not sure ODF would be inclined to adopt a measure than would reduce traffic to the lanes, because the dumbasses that will be put off by the fee will just take their old steel oil cans back out to the brush and shoot them where there is no fee.
 
It seems that those that do the worst damage almost never get caught... or at least nobody turns them in if they saw them. If most of the blatant, uncaring worst can never get caught, how can you expect them to get caught for not paying their "fee" to shoot? It just won't happen. Not even a little bit. The only ones that a fee of some kind will inconvenience are the rest of us who are already paying a "fee" with our taxes, even if the money goes to other things. Education won't fix it either because a person has to want to learn for it to be effective and most of the people responsible do not want to learn.

Shooters do not have a monopoly on destroying and messing up public land... you have the same thing with those that ride their ATVs, 4 wheelers, dirt bikers, hikers, homeless, those growing pot illegally, etc. I worked for BLM out of Prineville for a year and half and shooters were not that big of a problem at the time, it was other groups. Anywhere humans go, a certain number of them are going to do bad things on public and private land, that's the way it's always been and I do not see an end to it in the future.

In my opinion, what it comes down to is if people want to keep shooting on public land, then those that want to will need to keep cleaning up after those that have no regard for what they are doing... although that seems to be a losing battle.

Mike
 
I generally agree with all of what you said. I don't think education efforts will fix the worst of the worst, but we can keep them to a very small minority by making sure shooters who have not adopted habits yet adopt the right habits. We can only do that by being annoyingly vocal about the right way to treat the land. Not aggressive, but annoyingly vocal. It's a fine line. :)

I am not opposed to a fee to access the shooting lanes at all, and would happily pay it. If it worked the way we might hope, I think it would absolutely reduce traffic and improve the state of the lanes. There are logistical problems to enforcing a fee, but those could be dealt with pretty easily, I think. I believe the problem will be convincing ODF that reducing traffic is a good idea. From their perspective, the lanes are intended to give dispersed shooters a place to go rather than shooting at random spots in the woods and potentially starting brush fires that turn into forest fires. While the lanes are getting trashed, they are still doing their job from a forest preservation standpoint. I'm not sure ODF would be inclined to adopt a measure than would reduce traffic to the lanes, because the dumbasses that will be put off by the fee will just take their old steel oil cans back out to the brush and shoot them where there is no fee.
Part of the purpose of the shooting lanes was to attract people to shoot there. It was designed to make cleaning up easier and reduce the possibility of fire. I completely agree that people need to clean up after themselves but I would rather they make a mess in a place that's easy to get to verses deep in the forest. I work a lot with @Cogs on cleaning up shooting sites and it's going to take all of us to step up our game to help educate people about shooting correctly and maybe some extra law enforcement to make an example of some.
 
I hear what u guys are saying about cleaning up after the fact but that is constantly reacting to a bad situation. Maybe that is the best we can do but it makes it difficult for sure.

Sure would be nice to find a solution to prevent bad actors from doing it in the first place so that we don't have to react to them. Not saying there is an easy solution but it would be a good goal I think to get out of reaction mode if possible.

Just thinking out loud what about a forest service/blm type strong gate with combo lock for shooting lanes road. The $x minimal fee to trash-no-land can go towards paying for the gate and maintenance or whatever. Those who have signed up/paid the fee get the combo to the gate.

You couldn't apply that solution to every shooting place everywhere but you could make nice shooting places slowly, one at a time and continue to do the cleanup in other places. At least the cleanup would be at more limited sites as time goes on.
 
We already have a fee to shoot on public lands... the fee is the cost of disposing of your own trash. I'm afraid if we had a new fee, those who didn't clean it up before certainly would not clean it up now because they pay a fee and expect someone else gets paid to do that.

The incentive has been given... a nice place to shoot that is safer and easier to comply with the laws. It's been a good incentive that has been widely accepted and valued by many.

But, I guess the fee and the incentive is not enough to motivate the bad actors into changing their ways. I do think it is appreciated by most who use the lanes and the incentive did what it was designed to do.

So today, I'll be thankful for those who value what we have and help to keep it open.
 
Membership fee/ gated. And a cam (or even just a sign that its video surveillance)... to go after the ones not picking up their trash. Again, its the minimum you should do if shooting things other than paper... I've always made sure that when someone else shows up and I'm about to leave, I pick up my trash so that they see it.
 
That's about the best workable plan out there, Cogs, those of us that clean up after ourselves as well as clean up what others leave, continue to do so and encourage others and new shooters to do the same.

I also have my dash cam running when I drive down the road to check if any lanes are open... I probably won't confront anyone attacking the signs or blasting TV's and other appliances with shot guns, but I'll sure try to get as much video evidence as I can and turn it over to the sheriff's department.

Mike
 
That's about the best workable plan out there, Cogs, those of us that clean up after ourselves as well as clean up what others leave, continue to do so and encourage others and new shooters to do the same.

I also have my dash cam running when I drive down the road to check if any lanes are open... I probably won't confront anyone attacking the signs or blasting TV's and other appliances with shot guns, but I'll sure try to get as much video evidence as I can and turn it over to the sheriff's department.

Mike
So you'd rat me out to the sheriff for shooting potatoes or something even if I'd clean up after myself? Shooting Appliances is a nogo but seriously? I mean... I hauled other peoples computerparts out of the forrest before!?

Also, a little thought here. One shouldnt be shooting whats considered trash, correct?

Well, a Jug with water... isn't considered trash to begin with. BUT It becomes trash after its shot. So technically you aren't shooting trash, by definition, but rather create it. And if you creat trash, clean it up! Same theory as drinking a soda and then throwing the can in the woods. It became trash... and It should not be left there. And nobody other than myself is responsible for cleaning up my trash.
 
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So you'd rat me out to the sheriff for shooting potatoes or something even if I'd clean up after myself?.

We don't rat on fellow choir members, neb. Might casually mention it to someone shooting what an LEO would consider trash, but it's only to help them be more aware, avoid a citation if caught, and to help save our public image and our places to shoot.

We're not after small potatoes here. Only the big ones that cause closures.

On the other hand, if the shooters response is that of an A-hole who doesn't give a rip, I'd be inclined to throw the book at him! :)

Just help each other out so we all go home at the end of the day with a smile on our face and still have our favorite spot to shoot. Otherwise, it ain't no fun anymore.
 
So you'd rat me out to the sheriff for shooting potatoes or something even if I'd clean up after myself? Shooting Appliances is a nogo but seriously? I mean... I hauled other peoples computerparts out of the forrest before!?

Also, a little thought here. One shouldnt be shooting whats considered trash, correct?

Well, a Jug with water... isn't considered trash to begin with. BUT It becomes trash after its shot. So technically you aren't shooting trash, by definition, but rather create it. And if you creat trash, clean it up! Same theory as drinking a soda and then throwing the can in the woods. It became trash... and It should not be left there. And nobody other than myself is responsible for cleaning up my trash.
The thing is, that type of thinking is what I have issues with.

Yes, you clean it up. However, the person you don't know or people that you do know that see this, may not understand any better. They like the idea of shooting water bottles now, because you were and it looks fun. Next time they head up to NFWC they bring a case of water bottles to shoot at, and leave them.

If we treated places like NFWC like we treat an actual range like Tri County, where there are strict rules in place for targets, we wouldn't have these problems.

The fact that people still refuse to use manufactured targets readily available because they grew up shooting at cheap garbage or fun non garbage reactive targets, doesn't mean we should continue to do these things when trash IS the problem we have on public shooting areas.

Own your own property, shoot whatever the hell you want, you are only trashing your property.

Shoot on a private range like Tri County, you can shoot whatever you want, once. Chances are, you will be asked to leave and never come back.

Shoot on public lands, apparently is open season because some folks logic is different than those saying not to shoot this stuff, like saying it's not trash because there is still water in it and I haven't opened it yet.

Continue these lines of thinking, and nothing will change.

Change the way you shoot for the better, perhaps things start to change for the better.

Imagine if more folks looked down on these things, instead of fighting those looking to make changes so these lanes can stay open and more can be built.

ODF sees that nothing has changed, literally nothing, so why would they have any incentive to make more lanes?
 
Does anyone have a map of the recently posted No Target Shooting signs' locations? Trying to scout some backup locations on Maps for when the lanes are full/my Focus can't make the hill, would be handy to know what areas to just avoid in the first place. Thanks!
 
Does anyone have a map of the recently posted No Target Shooting signs' locations? Trying to scout some backup locations on Maps for when the lanes are full/my Focus can't make the hill, would be handy to know what areas to just avoid in the first place. Thanks!

The places we recently posted are only on North Fork Wolf Creek Rd, starting just past the tun off to lanes 1-4. It runs up the road about half mile. Road conditions there are pretty good and a Focus should not have trouble with that part. I'm not sure how road conditions are after that, or, if any other places are posted.

If the sign has the Trash No Land logo in the bottom right corner, then it's one that we helped ODF put in and is a spot that we agreed to be unsafe or a fire hazardous location.
 
Oh I understand the problem 100%. I use 99% papertargets and those self healing reactive things. The occasional waterjug happens when nobody is around,for the exact reason of not being a bad example. But that's once in a blue moon and is gonna be cleaned up after. I'm not saying its okay to do it.... but it shouldn't be a HUGE deal if its cleaned up.
 
I haven't been up to the lanes in awhile, but it was reported to me last night that someone has abandoned a dog at the lanes.

Anyone else see anything?

-E-
 
So I was up on lane 2 Christmas morning before sunrise. But that lack of light didn't prevent the ugly sight. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

80080478_10162856678945357_4835438563120119808_o.jpg
 
Time for somegrey spray paint.

How are the signs on the face of the Jersey Barriers? Curious to hear if they are still in tact or if damaged.

I found the same thing, again, up at a shooting place in the Yacolt Burn State Forest by me. @WrenchNguns and I recently covered all of it but it's back again (yes, Gary, it's Josh again! Poor kid!).

Take 2 tones of grey spray. One tone or the other should be a reasonable rock color match.

Thanks for letting us know.
 
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