Normal to see a some copper being shaved off bullet when pressing .223 components ?

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by John Gault, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. John Gault

    John Gault
    clackamas county
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    Attempting my first "rough draft" .223 reloading tonight. Components used include:

    1 ea LC brass that's been small based die resized ( No primer, No powder )
    1. ea Hornady 55gr V-max flat base, w/o cannula

    RCBS .223 TC Small Base die set.
    RCBS Rock Chucker



    Compared to my first pistol reload this is harder to align as the bullet does not sit inside the brass at all. So far almost every one of this configuration has shaved off a bit of copper from the bullet. Question is: Is this normal? Maybe if the bullets were boat tail this would not happen. I can kinda understand why some people claim they do not crimp at all if this is how tight they fit.

    Thanks,
     
  2. Rick4070

    Rick4070
    Central Oregon coast
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    Sounds like you need to SLIGHTLY chamfer the case mouth.
    Doesn't hurt to do that both inside and outside the case mouth, especially after trimming to length.
    RCBS chamfering tool:

    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/143728/rcbs-chamfer-and-deburring-tool-17-to-45-caliber

    Not trying to be picky, but it's "cannelure...";)

    Heck, it looks like Midway has discontinued the one I linked to, but I'm pretty sure they are still out there...

    RCBS still lists them...
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  3. John Gault

    John Gault
    clackamas county
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    Thanks for input Rick... I found a site that listed 3 ways to spell that word.

    I have a 6 pc kit with inner and outer chamfer tools included, didn't even consider that but brass had not been resized either. Still trying to decide what to do there. None of the brass is over 1.75". All is within 1.70 to 1.74. Do I group it by these sizes and load or do I trim it all to a (1) minimum length? Thinking out loud..........
     
  4. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf
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    Lightly chamfer inside the mouth.. enough that it's visible. It'll act like a mini funnel for the bullet and reduce it cutting/scoring etc.
     
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  5. Rick4070

    Rick4070
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    Wait.
    You seated a bullet without resizing the case first, or am I misunderstanding you??
    A bullet SHOULD pretty much drop into a fired, unsized case.
    Also, you said the lengths vary between 1.700" to 1.740"??
    Thats .040", and thats a lot.
    Usually you only see a few thousandths difference, something like .010" or so.
    I'd probably resize, and trim to the recommended minimum length.
    I believe that as long as the cases are less than 1.760" they should chamber fine, depends on your particular rifles chamber though, trimming probably isn't necessary, but I like my brass to be the same length, probably just me, though...
    One thing, if you want to crimp the bullet, it is better to have the cases the same length, otherwise, some will get crimped, some won't, and some will get crimped too much.
    That's with using regular dies, I don't have any experience with collet type dies, so I can't speak for them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  6. Classic

    Classic
    Federal Way WA
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    If you are just making plinking type rounds buy boat tails. I have shot 5000 of these and they are GREAT! Plus other than deburring after trimming they literally set in the top of the case, no muss no fuss!
    Use code 3514hp and get 5% off this week!
    223-55gr. FMJ
     
  7. elsie

    elsie
    Way over there on the left
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    It sounds like the expander ball on the sizer isn't expanding the neck enough. This would make the diameter of the neck too small and would cause both of these with the bullet getting shaved as it's pressed in and excessive neck tension causing rebound which results in varying seating depths. Also, you didn't indicate whether or not you'd lubed the inside of the neck. This may also cause similar problems.


    elsie
     
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  8. Derbel McDillet

    Derbel McDillet
    Kitsap County, WA
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    It appears to me you're applying too much crimp. When this happens the bullet is still being seated (pushed into the case) while at the same time the crimp is being applied - and this is causing the case mouth to shave slivers off the bullet jacket. (If you look closely you may also see that the case shoulder is also being deformed - usually bulging the base of the shoulder outward which will prevent the cartridge from chambering.)

    I suggest you back off your seater die slightly to apply less crimp. Then you'll have to re-adjust your seater stem to get the bullet seating depth/cartridge overall length you desire.

    And finally the RCBS small base .223 die set can be problematic, especially if this is your first experience handloading bottleneck rifle ammunition. If you continue to experience problems you should contact RCBS for assistance or purchase a standard .223 die set.

    Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
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  9. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf
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    I heard (Elmer Keith.. long time ago) that boat tails double throat erosion and only benefit trajectory past 300 yards (assuming "normal" military cartridges).
     
  10. JustShoot

    JustShoot
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    Don't Think So .
    it's a pile of Horse Dung & Does not make sense at all that BoatTail bullet design promotes Throat Erosion, & would gladly beg to differ since my .308 tube has been going strong over 4-k rounds with 100% diet of 175 BThp's . & Still Ragged Hole @ 100 yrd and sub MOA @ 600 yrd. I would expect No Less than to get at least 6-K before I re-barrel also .

    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  11. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf
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    I don't think I'd discount Elmer offhand. All I remember is what he said from way back.. I've not done exhaustive studies or anything.
    It kinda makes sense if you've ever looked at the base of a normal military FMJ versus any other.. you can see the lead at the base an it sould stand to reason that it'd easily obturate, sealing the bore better.
     
  12. JustShoot

    JustShoot
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    dont want to take away from the. OP's 'copper shaving' problem . & that has to be either . ruff edge of inside case neck, or to much neck-tension, or both .
    -
    as far as Throat erosion. Throat Erosion is relevant to . how HOT a Vel. your doing and a amount of Powder ' burning ' while doing it . It's all about the 'Burn '. & how hot you are willing to burn to get the results you strive for.
    As Example:
    I get ( 6-K rounds ) out a barrel using / 43.5 grn. powder/ 22" barrel / 2600 fps / with 175 sierrra hpbt's
    I only get ( 2-K rounds ) out a barrel using / 26" barrel / 3020 fps / with 155 berger vld's
    .
    -edit add:
    about the rolled edge & exposed Base of bullets without Jacket in center of base . maybe causing premature Throat erosion . I would expect to see 'maybe' a little more lead dust mixed in expanding muzzle gases out the barrel from burn because of it . ( i just don't see it ) a cause of throat erosion .

    also, Shooting a semi-auto AR and barrel/throat wear is usually attributed to 'consecutive rounds fired ' & how hot you want to get the barrel/throat for wear . You can shot rapid fire . single or 1-2-3 tap. or precision single hand-load, or Mag. dumping & all give different range of Throat life on the barrel . (using the same Bullet ) with Boat-Tail . Boat-Tail has nothing to do with it. but Mil. bullet BT's with a copper or a steel jacket has everything to do with it also.
    I have shot a lot of the .308 Lapua bullets with rebated boat-tail & exposed base and never noticed any Throat erosion with them . never heard of Throat erosion from a BT bullet even with BT & exposed jacket base . but that is the total difference in a ( semi-auto ) vs ( boltaction ) and barrel heat with the amount of powder your burning for extended lengths of trigger time .
    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  13. John Gault

    John Gault
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    Sorry, I meant to say "trimmed" rather than resized.. Guess I also moved a decimal place.

    So I "trimmed and deburred" 25 cases tonight. Trim length is 1.755. Pushed in a couple more bullets to confirm seating and crimp settings. My overall length is 2.247 No problems tonight with "shaving" off copper jacket.

    Thanks to EVERYONE who responded.
     
  14. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim
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    First step into reloading for me was the rock chucker and the 223 rcbs dies.
    Second step was getting rid of the rcbs dies and going to redding.
     
  15. John Gault

    John Gault
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    Just for .223 or did you change all dies to Redding and why on either account.

    Just bought RCBS dies for .223, .40 9mm 30-30

    Thanks
     
  16. thorborg

    thorborg
    portland oregon
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    Deburr yes chamfer if you must.
    Deburr the case very lightly but not to a knife edge. Usually only need to do this once in the case life unless you trim it.
    This alone should be enough to prevent copper scraping on a boattail.
    If you do that, and have no scraping, but the second sizing and loading scrapes the copper, i would look to a poorly made or finished die.
    Straight base or lead usually like a slight chamfer or flare if you will,with many ways to acheive that.
    The more you work the brass the shorter its life.
     
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  17. Silver Hand

    Silver Hand
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    John you won't have any problems with RCBS dies, they are good stuff. If you do not want to trim your brass to a specific equal length [ I do ] then make sure you stay at or under the over all cartridge case length suggested in your specific manual. Slightly under is my personal choice as cases change shape and may stretch in length when sized. Also if your cases vary in length you must set your RCBS seating die for the longest case and with the most pressure on the crimp. Make sure the bullets on the shortest cases are crimped by pressing the bullet tip into a block with force. If it does not move back into the case odds are good they will cycle and not come out of the case wile entering the breach [epically in semiautomatic weapons] Trimming cases properly is the most accepted method.
    I would rather see you purchase a lee Factory crimp die when not trimming for critical length. With the Lee factory crimp die, Trim length is not critical, Lee has developed a crimper that squeezes the neck of the brass against the bullet using a collet, a totally different approach, than with RCBS dies.

    Be careful, Using the RCBS dies some of your shortest cases may not get crimped at all. Make up a dummy round seat bullet into the shortest cases using your RCBS die then press them into a block as I said above. You will get the feel of it soon enough.
    Look into the Lee factory crimp die, I have been using RCBS dies for years but Lee has something here and it works well for any type of case crimping. I have purchased several and I am very pleased with the results.
    Silver Hand
     
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  18. DizzyJ

    DizzyJ
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    My 2-cents (and that may be all it's worth)

    1) Chamfer the HELL out of the inside of the case mouth anytime you're seating flat based bullets. You want to give them as much of a chance to slide it without interference as possible.

    2) Get a Forster competition bullet seating die, or the Redding or even RCBS. They have a sleeve that comes down and will align the bullet so it does not get cocked. This does two things. It helps to eliminate "shaving" the bottom of the bullet, and it also decreases runout. I prefer the micrometer top ones so you can make precision adjustments concerning bullet seating depth.

    Shaving the tip of a bullet does little to affect the accuracy. Shaving the BASE however, will wreak have on accuracy as the bullet will fly outside of the grouping you're getting with the non-deformed bullets.

    As long as you're getting .0025"-.003" neck tension, you shouldn't need to crimp a .223 cartridge. That's more than enough tension to hold the bullet in place, and you won't ruin accuracy due to varied crimps because not every case was at the EXACT same length.

    Do these things, and I think your find the accuracy and grouping more rewarding.
     
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  19. DizzyJ

    DizzyJ
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    Crap. I just realized how old this thread was.....

    Sorry :/
     
  20. Caveman Jim

    Caveman Jim
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    HA HA, I too have been known to have revived a dinosaur or two.... lol:p
     
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