Non serialized firearms are not "Arms" under the 2A(??)

[MikeSD]

Uh boy....

A district court judge in Colorado has made a ruling that non serialized firearms are considered dangerous and unusual (not commonly owned by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes) so the 922k statute (prohibiting possession of a non serialized or obliterated serial number firearm) that was recently ruled as unconstitutional is not in fact unconstitutional in this case since non serialized firearms are not "arms" under the 2A protection.

I kid you not! From the court ruling:

"...the court concluded that firearms with obliterated serial numbers are not within the class of firearms typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes. The court also finds that firearms with an obliterated serial number---like the one Defendant is accused of possessing---are dangerous and unusual weapons and, therefore, not within the scope of the Second Amandment's guarantee."

"In sum, the Court holds that the kinds of firearms 922(k) prohibits are not "Arm" within the meaning of the Second Amendment, and as a consequence Defendant's constitutional challenge to this statutory provision fails."

"Because the Court finds that 922(k) does not impact arms covered by the Second Amendment, it need not take up the separate issue of whether it is in accord with country's history and tradition of regulated firearms."

The full ruling if anyone's interested: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-cod-1_22-cr-00224/pdf/USCOURTS-cod-1_22-cr-00224-0.pdf

Granted the defendant in the case is a sleezeball and deserves to be nailed to the wall, but the judges logic and understanding of the law is deeply troubling.

Even if non serialized firearms were "not" protected, that still doesn't make 922k any more constitutional since the statute was created in the 70's(?) with no historical tradition requiring firearms to be serialized. The statute itself has no provision addressing 2A protected vs. non 2A protected firearms and would be null and void in whole.

That's kind of like saying an assault weapon ban that was thrown out for being unconstitutional is still valid and good law as it applies against NFA items. Isn't it??

His ruling fails, backward, forwards or any which way you look at it.

Temporary

 

[MikeSD]

Except... Heller did in fact talk about semiautomatic handguns. The NFA also talks about classes of firearms by their physical characteristics, not by the presence nor absence of serial numbers.

Firearms outside the NFA were not required to have unique Serial numbers until 1968, and even the ATF have said homemade guns are exempt unless being sold or made/manufactured for business in which there'd be a FFL manufacturer license requirement along with SN stamping/engraving requirements

Firearms whose serials were removed, are no less a class of Firearms than those that never had serials in the first place. Again, it is the act of removing serials that turns an otherwise legal firearm into something that may or may not be illegal, depending on the firearm. A lower whose serial has been obliterated? Maybe illegal, but the upper half is legal on its own. A Glock? Well that's a different class, even though it may or may not have a defaced serial.

Because there are different types of Firearms whose serials have been removed; it is, IMO, asinine to assign them as a whole class with only the destruction of serials being the deciding factor.

Yes most are handguns, but how many are revolvers and how many are semiautomatic, how many also illegally modified to be FA; IE Glock switched? (Full auto)

Nonsense. At the time the 2ndA was written the vast majority, If not all, had no serial numbers.


Any ruling that is not SCOTUS is a temporary opinion. That's why they are called "opinions"

 

[Flopsweat]

Nonsense. At the time the 2ndA was written the vast majority, If not all, had no serial numbers.


Any ruling that is not SCOTUS is a temporary opinion. That's why they are called "opinions"

It's been brought up several times in this thread that the court is making a distinction between guns that have never had a serial number and guns that have had a serial number defaced or removed.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Nonsense. At the time the 2ndA was written the vast majority, If not all, had no serial numbers.


Any ruling that is not SCOTUS is a temporary opinion. That's why they are called "opinions"

Until 1934, no firearms were required by Federal law to have serial numbers; it wasn't until the NFA act of 1934 that certain classes of firearms and silencers would have needed unique serials in order to be registered with the NFA; or some way of identifying which specific items are registered with the ATF... I do believe the National Firearms Act of 1938; which saw the introduction of a Federal Firearms Licensing scheme and the requirement for pretty much all parts of firearms to have serials (not necessarily unique, mind you) to be sold over state lines....that was a mess until GCA 1968 repealed that 1938 act and kept some aspects and amended other aspects and added a Prohibited Persons Class and introduced the BG check and so forth I think? Anyways... the unique Serial requirement applied after 1968 to new(post 1968 manufactured) firearms sold through FFLs and also sold over State lines...

I do not know of any SCOTUS case or Federal Appeals cases or State court cases where the "constitutionality" of the Serial requirements have been tested.. and I do not think it will be tested.

Only the difference that defacing/obliterating the existing Serial number from firearms that never had them or didn't need them (""ghost guns"" privately/personal/home made guns) , which has repeatedly been pointed out, but there is a potential for other anti 2A State/Fed Judges to use the same logic against "ghost guns".

 

[CamoDeafie]

The reason I don't think the constitutionality of serial requirement for commercially available firearms to be sold through FFLs and also over state lines; will ever be tested against the 2A, is because other commercially available items have had serial requirements for a ridiculously long time anyhow.. see VIN numbers, sewing machine serial databases; particularly Singer's which is basically.. anal about putting serials on their machines since the 1800s , and many other examples of commercially available items that have serials.. such as consumer electronics (phones, computers, printers, equipment similar)

 

[wired]

The reason I don't think the constitutionality of serial requirement for commercially available firearms to be sold through FFLs and also over state lines; will ever be tested against the 2A, is because other commercially available items have had serial requirements for a ridiculously long time anyhow.. see VIN numbers, sewing machine serial databases; particularly Singer's which is basically.. anal about putting serials on their machines since the 1800s , and many other examples of commercially available items that have serials.. such as consumer electronics (phones, computers, printers, equipment similar)

My 1848 Colt is serialized.

 

[CamoDeafie]

My 1848 Colt is serialized.

But it wasn't required by Federal Law, right?

 

[wired]

But it wasn't required by Federal Law, right?

Sam Colts Law. He was pretty anal.

 

[jackrv]

I do believe the National Firearms Act of 1938; which saw the introduction of a Federal Firearms Licensing scheme and the requirement for pretty much all parts of firearms to have serials (not necessarily unique, mind you) to be sold over state lines

If that is true, then Mossberg violated said law as late as the late '40s and early 50's.

Model 142A is an example. I have one and it has no serial number and was sold across state lines.


Jack

 

[wired]

If that is true, then Mossberg violated said law as late as the late '40s and early 50's.

Model 142A is an example. I have one and it has no serial number and was sold across state lines.


Jack

The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 did not require serialization

 

[CamoDeafie]

The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 did not require serialization

But it did introduce the crime of removing manufacturer's serial numbers from a firearm..

Federal Firearms Act of 1938 - Scan to Pdf documents https://homicide.northwestern.edu/docs_fk/homicide/laws/national_firearms_act_of_1938.pdf