non-reloader with a reloading question

[PuddleMonkey]

Except for the fact that you can't use the stainless steel pins in it. I haven't used corncob/walnut shell for so long I'm not sure I even have enough around to fill my vibrator type "tumbler".

One can easily get hooked on the clean (inside, outside, primer pockets too) cases the pin media produces. Couple that with the fact there's no more dust and the media will probably last a lifetime, it's hard to look back.

Kind of like when I switched from loading pistol rounds, one at a time, to a 650. No comparison.

Steel pins? Dust? Are we still talking tumblers?

I'm still confused on what the best/most efficient way to clean these suckers is. Came home today with another bag full of cases, I'm half tempted to get the tumbler thing figured out before building my bench so I can get to work on cleaning these thousands of brass. Seems like the reloading machine is a no brainer, not sure why the cleaning part is so complicated.

 

[justpyro]

If you decide not to reload, you can always sell the brass, either to members here, or to <broken link removed>

I haven't done the brass buyback (I donate my brass to reloading gurus to PIF), but their customer service on ammo is great, so I have no doubt they'll be fine with the buyback. It also has the benefit of not needing to sort.

Hopefully if I ever get some extra space, I'll reload myself.

 

[deadshot2]

not sure why the cleaning part is so complicated.

Only because people make it complicated. If the question is "What's the best way to completely clean brass then the answer is simple. Stainless Steel Pin Media in a Tumbler (not vibrator). Second best is the ultrasonic cleaner. Both do a great job, it's just isn't quite as simple as the pin media which just uses some simple dish soap for cleaner.

Every other method only partly cleans the cases. If that's good enough for you, then so be it. If you want TOTALLY clean brass, what's so complicated?

 

[Key-Hay]

I will just address the cost/price part of the question. Currently using titegroup and plated bullets i can reload a box(50) of 9mm for about $4.50 and a box of .45 for about $8. Here's the breakdown for .45:

Titegroup 4.6 gr = 1522 per pound at $19/# = 1.2 cents
x-treme 230gr plated rn @ 11.6 cents per
primer Winchester large $27 per 1000 = 2.7 cents per

total= 15.5 cents per round x50 =$7.75/box

That is a significant savings. However, I should add that my reloading gear(cheap *** lee classic 4 turret) were given to me for free ;-)

Hit Bimart for the Titegroup. There regular price is $15.97/lb and they just had a $2.00 off all powders ($13.97)

 

[PuddleMonkey]

Only because people make it complicated. If the question is "What's the best way to completely clean brass then the answer is simple. Stainless Steel Pin Media in a Tumbler (not vibrator). Second best is the ultrasonic cleaner. Both do a great job, it's just isn't quite as simple as the pin media which just uses some simple dish soap for cleaner.

Every other method only partly cleans the cases. If that's good enough for you, then so be it. If you want TOTALLY clean brass, what's so complicated?

googled this stainless pin media, looks promising!


Brass Cleaning with Stainless Media within AccurateShooter.com

 

[Key-Hay]

OK so I bought my 550B like 13 years ago. Have loaded about 3000 rounds up until about a year ago. Then suddenly I got into Cowboy action. Over the last year I've loaded 5000 rounds. When I do the breakdown I figure the payoff for a mid priced 550B is 3500-4500 rounds.....getting ready to buy my second 550B!!!

So now I'll have one set for small primer and one for large primer!!! No more swapping the priming system, And best of all they've paid for themselves!!!!

 

[Key-Hay]

googled this stainless pin media, looks promising!


Brass Cleaning with Stainless Media within AccurateShooter.com

Stick with the tried and true! Couple hours in corn cob and their so clean you will need sunglasses.

If you're getting started pick up a 550B (650/950 is for people with extra dough of crank out a lot of the same cal) with a basic tumbler and corn cob and just get going. You learn by doing

 

[deadshot2]

Stick with the tried and true! Couple hours in corn cob and their so clean you will need sunglasses.

Yes, nice and bright and shiny, but only on the outside. Insides are still as dirty as when the process started save for a couple granules of soot that might fall out. Primer pockets are still dirty too.

If we were all to stay with the "tried and true", never moving up as more modern methods come about, we would all be carrying muzzle loading, black powder, firearms.

 

[Key-Hay]

Yes, nice and bright and shiny, but only on the outside. Insides are still as dirty as when the process started save for a couple granules of soot that might fall out. Primer pockets are still dirty too.

If we were all to stay with the "tried and true", never moving up as more modern methods come about, we would all be carrying muzzle loading, black powder, firearms.

Have never had a problem with brass not clean enough but then I'm loading for IPSC and cowboy action.

All I'm saying is that for a new reloader keep things simple. Learn about the nuances once you've got some successes under your belt.

 

[deadshot2]

All I'm saying is that for a new reloader keep things simple. Learn about the nuances once you've got some successes under your belt.

And I'm suggesting that a NEW reloader should consider the NEW methods rather than getting stuck in the last century. There's nothing difficult about using the Stainless Steel Pins. If one buys a Thumbler Model B and Pins, they're set for a lot of years beyond just their beginner years.

 

[Velillen]

And I'm suggesting that a NEW reloader should consider the NEW methods rather than getting stuck in the last century. There's nothing difficult about using the Stainless Steel Pins. If one buys a Thumbler Model B and Pins, they're set for a lot of years beyond just their beginner years.

Every method has its advantages and disadvantages. Tumbling might not get cases as clean but it fool proof and no need to add anything but the media. Works fine for plunking ammo. Ultrasonic is nice for small batches but you have to get a good formula. Pluses are it can be used to clean gun parts too. Stm is expensive up front and does a great job. But has more steps than the simple turn on and separate of a tumbler.

Cost wise my tumbler has cost me all of around 80 bucks and I'm still on my first batch of media out of 5 pounds of it. But I don't do tons of casings either.

It's all about what you are reloading for and how much you want to spend. I'm cheap and I only really reload for plunking ammo so tumbler is the way to go.

But that's my thoughts on it and at some point ill add either a ultrasonic or stm but for a new person tjeres plenty other stuff to buy

 

[GuyBMeredith]

Hornady LNL AP

plated bullets from X-Treme bullets

primers and powder from the Albany Rifle and Pistol Club Northwest Ammo Supply here in Salem

2000 pieces of Starline brass

20/40 grit corncob (does not clog primer holes) from Granger at about $25 per 40# for cleaning

I spend a little over $4.00 on .38 spl for what would cost $15 to $20 on up from a commercial vendor. The ammo is tailored for my needs and always on the shelf--no chasing inventory.

 

[RVTECH]

not sure why the cleaning part is so complicated.

I really isn't - it's just there are so many variations it seems complicated. Up until about five years ago I used to throw all my brass in a heavy cotton bag with a kitchen sink green scotchbrite pad and then into the washing machine with a heavy load like jeans. They came out satisfactorily clean and smooth. Then I got a vibratory cleaner and for a while became obsessed with them looking like new, but have now settled for smooth and moderately bright with walnut shell and 3M water based glazing compound. What I do now is if I vibrate a lot of cases and don't get to them for a while I'll size & deprime and sometimes run them again to brighten them up and clean the primer pockets. Bottom line? We are probably a little more concerned with cleanliness than we really need to be.

 

[deadshot2]

We are probably a little more concerned with cleanliness than we really need to be.

And for some reason, only on the outside of the case.

People spend more time figuring out how to make the cases look like a piece of jewelry but "pooh-pooh" the methods that clean not just the outside but inside and primer pockets as well, all at the same time.

Among the reloaders of this country there are lots that resist change, any change. It also seems that many are more concerned about "How Cheap" I can load rather "How Good my finished ammo performs".

For the "Cheapskate", corncob or walnut shell is fine. For the "Perfectionist", then consider ultrasonic cleaning or Stainless Pins. Clean it all in one process rather than having to clean the primer pockets separately and never getting the inside of the case clean.

 

[Key-Hay]

OK Deadshot, I gotta ask. What are you reloading that requires such cleanliness and why. Ya got me interested.

I'm shooting Cowboy Action and Wild Bunch (.38 Sp, 45LC, and 45ACP). Most of my loads are fairly low velocity lead. I'm shooting at 16"X16" targets anywhere from 4 yds to 20 yds. I clean to a shiny finish so I can spot the split cases easily.

Should I be concerned with how clean the inside of the case is?

 

[deadshot2]

OK Deadshot, I gotta ask. What are you reloading that requires such cleanliness and why. Ya got me interested.

I shoot .308 loads that I am able to get near Bench Rest performance from even though they are being shot in a Factory barreled rifle.

I like completely clean cases for the simple fact that I have no buildup of carbon from the previous loads. Nothing to alter the burn characteristics of the new powder. I am able to control the actual "pull pressure" necessary to start the bullet moving from the case. Everyone talks about "Neck Tension" but in reality they're only talking about the interference fit measurements where the case mouth is sized a couple thousandths less than the bullet.

Want to know what the actual pressure needed, and how uniform it is, take a beam type torque wrench, fasten it to a single stage press and using a collet puller die, measure the actual pressure required to remove the bullet from the case mouth.

I found that CLEAN makes for the most uniform when sized to a given interference fit (neck tension).

Also, when using a sensitive scale, one can measure the carbon buildup from shooting after shooting.

Maybe for Cowboy Action this isn't an issue but where it's desirable to remove EVERY variable, either ultrasonic cleaners or ss pin media is the choice. Even the well know NW Bench Rest shooter Ted Larsen, who has numerous records to his name, has gone to the ultrasonic method of cleaning his cases. Every little thing is a "variable" which needs to be controlled. Since you can't control how much carbon there is in the case, just control how clean it is.

Lastly, with bottle necked cases it's hard to spot any impending case head separation when there is an expansion ring forming. Clean a case with ultrasonic cleaners or stainless steel pins and you can see the inside of the case and even the beginnings of an expansion ring.

To answer your last question, you only need to be as concerned as you want to be with the loads you mentioned.

I'm a little fussy, I kind of like my 100 yard groups to look like this



Remember, "Factory Rifle". Attention to detail does pay off. It's ALL important and yes, that 5 shot group really does measure .191".

 

[Key-Hay]

Nice!

I think I'll stick with my ol Dillon shaker bowl and corn cob though. I'm not needing groups anything close to that.

 

[kd7vdb]

I can do .45 for around $5 a box. But when using quality components in rifle rounds its about the same.

 

[deadshot2]

I can do .45 for around $5 a box. But when using quality components in rifle rounds its about the same.

On rifle rounds I find that you only approach the cost of new when reloading with quality components if you compare with cheap rifle ammo.

I load Match Grade ammo for my .308 that out shoots Federal Gold Medal Match that sells on average for about "a buck a round". My handloads cost me $0.33/round and that cost is calculated on the single pound price of powder. My loads for tomorrow were with CFE223, Nosler Custom Comp 168 gr bullets purchased in a box of 1,000 for $0.21 ea. Wolf Primers that cost $20 per thousand.

Every "box of 20" reloads puts $13.40 back in my pocket when compared with buying a box of FGMM ammo.

Note: The Wolf Primers have given me the lowest SD, MAD (Mean absolute deviation), and ES values of all the primers I've used with this rifle. Reduced speed variations have shown as tighter groups the farther out I shoot.