Non-NFA "shorty" shotguns - legal federally, not legal in Oregon?

[arakboss]

That is what confuses me. Normally a firearm with a shoulder stock and a rifled barrel is a rifle. I am not sure how a rifled barrel shotgun escapes the rifle classification?

Edit it appears the feds definition of shotgun includes the type of ammunition it uses.

2.1.1 Shotgun A shotgun is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the
energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of
projectiles or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger

Rifle definition from the same publication.

2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of
an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull
of the trigger.


What is the definition of a fixed cartridge, could a brass hull be considered a fixed cartridge and could a slug be considered a single projectile? What is the difference between a brass hull and a typical straight walled brass case?

 

[arakboss]

This brings me right back around to the shotgun chamber adapters. They change the design of the shotgun to shoot a fixed cartridge that fires a single projectile through a rifled barrel. Seems to me that the classification of the shotgun would change to a rifle when a chamber adapter was installed in the shotgun barrel.

 

[User 1234]

The thing is, you can get a fully rifled barrel for a shotgun and per federal law, that is still a shotgun, even though it is not a smoothbore.

I believe this is incorrect, if we are talking about a slug barrel which fires a single projectile. This is why anyone buying a semi auto shotgun in WA is wise to buy it with a smooth bore instead of with a slug barrel on it. A Remington 1100 with a rifled slug barrel is a "semi automatic assault rifle" under WA law and if transferred through a dealer has the $18 fee and ten business day waiting period.

The federal definition is attached from 18 USC 921.

 

[arakboss]

I believe this is incorrect, if we are talking about a slug barrel which fires a single projectile. This is why anyone buying a semi auto shotgun in WA is wise to buy it with a smooth bore instead of with a slug barrel on it. A Remington 1100 with a rifled slug barrel is a "semi automatic assault rifle" under WA law and if transferred through a dealer has the $18 fee and ten business day waiting period.

The federal definition is attached from 18 USC 921.

View attachment 1117461

Interesting. I wonder if other shotguns sold from the manufacture with a rifled barrel attached, would transfer as a rifle?

Edit: since the feds don't distinguish between rifles and shotguns on form 4473, this may only be an issue for state laws or nfa issues.

 

[wired]

That is what confuses me. Normally a firearm with a shoulder stock and a rifled barrel is a rifle. I am not sure how a rifled barrel shotgun escapes the rifle classification?

Edit it appears the feds definition of shotgun includes the type of ammunition it uses.

2.1.1 Shotgun A shotgun is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the
energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of
projectiles or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger

The ATF can allow sporting exemptions.

 

[The Heretic]

I believe this is incorrect, if we are talking about a slug barrel which fires a single projectile. This is why anyone buying a semi auto shotgun in WA is wise to buy it with a smooth bore instead of with a slug barrel on it. A Remington 1100 with a rifled slug barrel is a "semi automatic assault rifle" under WA law and if transferred through a dealer has the $18 fee and ten business day waiting period.

The federal definition is attached from 18 USC 921.

View attachment 1117461

You seem to be conflating federal law with WA state law though.

While you cited federal law, rifled barrels for shotguns are legal per federal law:

https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download?destination=file/58196/download

2.1.8.2 Large caliber weapons.

definition specifically excludes a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.

or

27 CFR § 479.11 | eRegulations

regulations.atf.gov

Destructive device.(a) Any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (1) bomb, (2) grenade, (3) rocket having a propellent charge of more than 4 ounces, (4) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (5) mine, or (6) similar device; (b) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Director finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;

 

[User 1234]

You seem to be conflating federal law with WA state law though.

While you cited federal law, rifled barrels for shotguns are legal per federal law:

https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download?destination=file/58196/download

2.1.8.2 Large caliber weapons.

definition specifically excludes a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.

or

27 CFR § 479.11 | eRegulations

regulations.atf.gov

Destructive device.(a) Any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (1) bomb, (2) grenade, (3) rocket having a propellent charge of more than 4 ounces, (4) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (5) mine, or (6) similar device; (b) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Director finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;

You are quoting NFA definitions, the applicable ones are the GCA ones from 18 USC 921. "Destructive device" and "large caliber weapon" are irrelevant to the question of whether a firearm is a rifle or shotgun under the GCA. And WA has more state law consequences for this question than federal does, but that doesn't change the federal definition which includes shotguns with rifled slug barrels as "rifles."

 

[The Heretic]

You are quoting NFA definitions, the applicable ones are the GCA ones from 18 USC 921. "Destructive device" and "large caliber weapon" are irrelevant to the question of whether a firearm is a rifle or shotgun under the GCA. And WA has more state law consequences for this question than federal does, but that doesn't change the federal definition which includes shotguns with rifled slug barrels as "rifles."

It might be a grey area and seem to be conflicting definitions, but a shotgun with a rifled barrel is not a rifle. Buying a rifled barrel for a shotgun and installing it does not make it a rifle. I have not bought a shotgun that comes with a rifled barrel, but I would bet that the classification of one on a 4473 would be as a shotgun.

WA state law aside, this thread is about NFA issues, not state law.

 

[User 1234]

Installing a rifled slug barrel on a shotgun transforms it from a shotgun to a rifle. I already provided the legal quote above. It meets all of the definition's requirements. What is your legal cite for the proposition that a firearm with a buttstock firing a single projectile through a rifled bore is not a rifle under the GCA (or even NFA)?

 

[User 1234]

Here is the 26 USC 5845 NFA definition of rifle, which also includes a Remington 1100 (or 870, or 590) with a rifled bore and buttstock.

 

[The Heretic]

Installing a rifled slug barrel on a shotgun transforms it from a shotgun to a rifle. I already provided the legal quote above. It meets all of the definition's requirements. What is your legal cite for the proposition that a firearm with a buttstock firing a single projectile through a rifled bore is not a rifle under the GCA (or even NFA)?

So tell me, what is a combination rifle/shotgun - like a Savage 24? Is it a rifle or a shotgun?

I assert that a shotgun sold with a rifled barrel is a shotgun because it was made from a shotgun.

 

[User 1234]

Here is WA's definition of rifle, which provides the same result as the federal definitions.

 

[User 1234]

So tell me, what is a combination rifle/shotgun - like a Savage 24? Is it a rifle or a shotgun?

I assert that a shotgun sold with a rifled barrel is a shotgun because it was made from a shotgun.

If you want to contend that firearm laws are illogical or have not kept up with technology then you won't find any disagreement from me. They are irrational, unless one considers that the entire point of gun control laws is to dismantle private gun ownership.

I have not seen any legal cite that would prevent a firearm from being both a pistol and a rifle and a shotgun simultaneously. For example, in WA SBRs are pistols because they have a barrel less than 16". They are also rifles because they are intended to be fired from the shoulder and fire a single projectile through a rifled bore.

 

[Librarian]

Rifle definition from the same publication.

2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of
an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull
of the trigger.


What is the definition of a fixed cartridge, could a brass hull be considered a fixed cartridge and could a slug be considered a single projectile? What is the difference between a brass hull and a typical straight walled brass case?

I think the 'cartridge' language is to differentiate from muzzle-loaders, "antique firearms" by 18 USC 921(a)(16)(C).

 

[matts]

What is the shockwave if not a shotgun?

"Any other weapon" is what it is....

 

[User 1234]

"Any other weapon" is what it is....

No, AOW is a category of NFA firearm. The NFA definition of firearm is different than the GCA definition of firearm.

There are many GCA firearms such as the 14" barrel Shockwave that are not AOW. "Other firearm" is not the same as "Any Other Weapon."

 

[arakboss]

If I have a rifled bore firearm sold as a 410 shotgun but is also approved to shoot 45 colt cartidges is it still a shotgun when I am shooting 45LC cartidges with it?

Let's say a kit like this but with rifled slug barrels instead of smooth bore barrels.

 

[User 1234]

If I have a rifled bore firearm sold as a 410 shotgun but is also approved to shoot 45 colt cartidges is it still a shotgun when I am shooting 45LC cartidges with it?

If it has a rifled bore and a buttstock and fires fixed cartridges then it is a rifle. The marketing name does not trump the legal definition quoted above.

 

[Knebel]

So has anyone bought one in oregon? I have never seen any in a store and was interested too...

 

[arakboss]

If it has a rifled bore and a buttstock and fires fixed cartridges then it is a rifle. The marketing name does not trump the legal definition quoted above.

I agree and I am going with that opinion for range rules purposes when using a rifled barrel adapter in a previously a shotgun firearm. I better look for 16in adapter so I don't break NFA short barrel rules.

Edit: I will leave original barrel length intact in case I want to convert the rifle back to a shotgun.