Non-AR SHTF Primary Carbine?

[Pandaz3]

I would be all over the M-1 Carbine if it had better loads for it!!

Mine does not like Hornady Critical Defense 110 Gr FTX, but it loves the Underwood Extreme Cavitator 85 Gr. it does like all the 110 gr FMJ I have tried. I can use the Hornady in my Blackhawk.

 

[Member 34319]

Personally I don't see anything like this having much relevance IF semi auto ARs were to be banned.

I mean isn't the primary appeal of an AR the fact that it can be fired semi automatically ? - and including things like bump stocks and the 'FRT' triggers to make them even faster?

My point being if ARs were to be 'reduced' to lever action why would anyone still want one if it no longer has the beloved ability of semi auto fire?

Is it all bout the appearance? The pistol grip, black in color and the pistol caliber options? Will the whole AR 'phenomenon' transcend and continue if they WERE to become lever action or pump action?

I wouldn't say that the primary appeal is because it is semi auto and can be made fast. Lots of similar firearms can do exactly the same, so why are they not as popular?

I'd say it is popular due to modern machinery making it easy to produce and it is produced in mass by multiple companies. Combined with its modularity and availability of aftermarket parts. It's very economic. All of those things would still exist the day after they get banned. They would want something else to fall back on. Imagine magpul without the AR15. A company that makes a ton of stuff for a product that can no longer be owned.

Id bet money on some form of neutered AR being popular. I don't see companies reverting back to producing more bolt actions or lever guns. The AR is Americans rifle and something of its nature will follow it.

 

[oremike]

To follow the tangent a bit, would they make the AR's and the like without the gas tube maybe as straight pull bolt? Of course if the gas tube was sold separately......well you do the math.

 

[JO JO]

There is a California legal version of the AR , with non detachable magazine
10 round fixed magazine, it is worth noting the M1A l believe is legal there for some reason the M1A does not meet the so called assault rifle discription
I don't and will never live in California

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Personally those bizarre bastardized ARs like the lever gun abomination shown above are the last gun I would ever own. Not only are they butt ugly, they are just sick and wrong. If I want a lever gun there are tons of great guns available such as the original 1873, 1894, reproductions etc etc and you can find them in a multitude of calibers. Just my opinion on them. If these things were vehicles they would be this (apologies in advance if the image makes you puke).

Distgusting bastardized AR thing that should be wiped off the earth:

Vs a good AR is more like this:

 

[RVTECH]

I'd say it is popular due to modern machinery making it easy to produce and it is produced in mass by multiple companies. Combined with its modularity and availability of aftermarket parts. It's very economic.

While this makes sense my thought would be the expense of creating a 'hybrid' AR in a lever action or say pump action. The design would be so different it would in effect negate the need for a lot of the previous aftermarket parts and accessories as many would no longer be needed.

Would a new design eventually be as 'economic' ? possibly but it would no doubt be a burden on the industry with probably not all 'surviving'.

I suspect you are right about something of its nature will follow it but would it ever have the popularity and following as in the past? Hopefully this is all 'hypothetical' and nothing that ever becomes reality.

 

[Alexx1401]

Anyone who knows me at all knows I am BIG on PCC's. With my aging eyes I love the PCC's They are limited of course in range but so am I
Of those I currently have other than AR my favorite is still the Ruger. That it will easily switch between several kinds of mags and uses Glock mags is a huge +. Take down so easy to pack. Second is the old Kel-Tec S2K. Many love to hate them but mine still impresses me for how well it works compared to how damn cheap they are.
I have a TNW in 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP. Very nice, especially the 10mm. Sadly I can not recommend them since the guy who owns the Co is less than stellar to put it kindly. They were a damn nice idea though and the 10mm version is kept close as a just in case.

 

[Alexx1401]

TNW aero survival rifle in 10 mm is the one I'm looking at.

Aero Survival Rifle, Glock 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W, 45ACP, 357SIG, 460 Rowland | TNW Firearms

Chambered in 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W, 45ACP, 357SIG, 460 Rowland and compatible with Glock magazines, the Aero Survival Rifle from TNW Firearms is perfect for home defense and outdoor enthusiasts.

www.tnwfirearms.com

I have one, actually 2, 1 set up to swap between .45ACP and 10mm. They are a nice design but, warning, the company is sadly owned by someone who leaves a LOT to be desired. I have not yet tried one but a company makes one that looks to be the same gun called Just Right Carbine.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Anyone who knows me at all knows I am BIG on PCC's. With my aging eyes I love the PCC's They are limited of course in range but so am I
Of those I currently have other than AR my favorite is still the Ruger. That it will easily switch between several kinds of mags and uses Glock mags is a huge +. Take down so easy to pack. Second is the old Kel-Tec S2K. Many love to hate them but mine still impresses me for how well it works compared to how damn cheap they are.
I have a TNW in 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP. Very nice, especially the 10mm. Sadly I can not recommend them since the guy who owns the Co is less than stellar to put it kindly. They were a damn nice idea though and the 10mm version is kept close as a just in case.

One thing for me on PCCs is its use in urban settings. Last night we had the shooting close by mentioned above and I had my Stribog ready just in case. In other shootings I have noticed perps run into backyards jump fences and in rare cases break into houses to escape cops. So that was what I was "casually" preparing for (kinda halfway between code yellow and orange cuz no specific threat kinda a heightened yellow level).

anyway the reason I choose that gun over others last night for urban defense role due to #1 accuracy and trust. I could train with brn-180 and AR to get to same level of accuracy and trust probably but for me that gun is absolutely uncanny how easy it is to hit targets (even while u are moving or when target is moving). I don't know why it's so easy to shoot accurately.

the second reason is penetration. With self defense 9mm loads I have less concerns about overpenetration or penetration into unintended targets than 556 or #00 buck.

so in a nutshell pcc is first choice for me in urban settings cuz I can very confidently hit multiple targets very quickly and have less fear of unintended consequences. also I don't expect to need to shoot long range in that setting.

if it was open ground I would prefer 223/556. In a vehicle I would prefer pcc with folding brace cuz can shoot it from vehicle with brace folded (or brn-180/ar-180. 12.5" which u can also shoot while folded) ie grab and shoot if needed but still have ability for stabilized shooting if need to shoot at longer range (in contrast to jnstabilized pistol). Just my thoughts. Main thing is to be practiced and confident with whatever u choose or have at ur disposal.

 

[Member 34319]

While this makes sense my thought would be the expense of creating a 'hybrid' AR in a lever action or say pump action. The design would be so different it would in effect negate the need for a lot of the previous aftermarket parts and accessories as many would no longer be needed.

Would a new design eventually be as 'economic' ? possibly but it would no doubt be a burden on the industry with probably not all 'surviving'.

I suspect you are right about something of its nature will follow it but would it ever have the popularity and following as in the past? Hopefully this is all 'hypothetical' and nothing that ever becomes reality.

Who knows! Thing about this thread is if I can't pick the AR15, there isn't much I'd rather have in SHTF. With the millions and millions in civilian circulation, the military versions, some outside military use, that IS my got to carbine for SHTF. The only reason it wouldn't be is if they changed the laws. Even in states where they are sort of illegal some version of an AR15 is still the most widely used carbine in those states. It's just a damn good gun. So, by my thinking, there would be a lot of people looking for some similar option if they went bye bye all of a sudden as per the reasoning in the OP. That the AR15 was made illegal. The other choices in the OP weren't really an excuse not to chose the AR15, as others still don't hold up to the AR in my opinion.

 

[Alexx1401]

One thing for me on PCCs is its use in urban settings. Last night we had the shooting close by mentioned above and I had my Stribog ready just in case. In other shootings I have noticed perps run into backyards jump fences and in rare cases break into houses to escape cops. So that was what I was "casually" preparing for (kinda halfway between code yellow and orange cuz no specific threat kinda a heightened yellow level).

anyway the reason I choose that gun over others last night for urban defense role due to #1 accuracy and trust. I could train with brn-180 and AR to get to same level of accuracy and trust probably but for me that gun is absolutely uncanny how easy it is to hit targets (even while u are moving or when target is moving). I don't know why it's so easy to shoot accurately.

the second reason is penetration. With self defense 9mm loads I have less concerns about overpenetration or penetration into unintended targets than 556 or #00 buck.

so in a nutshell pcc is first choice for me in urban settings cuz I can very confidently hit multiple targets very quickly and have less fear of unintended consequences. also I don't expect to need to shoot long range in that setting.

if it was open ground I would prefer 223/556. In a vehicle I would prefer pcc with folding brace cuz can shoot it from vehicle with brace folded (or brn-180/ar-180. 12.5" which u can also shoot while folded) ie grab and shoot if needed but still have ability for stabilized shooting if need to shoot at longer range (in contrast to jnstabilized pistol). Just my thoughts. Main thing is to be practiced and confident with whatever u choose or have at ur disposal.

YEP! I was big on PCC's for "home use" decades before they caught on. Have always had at least one "house shotgun", the standard 12ga pump that so many love. I do still have on but its a safe queen. For Wife and I both I have long proffered the PCC. Light, short, easy to hit with. When I started playing on the net I found the lowly 9mm was not so lowly out of a 16inch tube. That did surprise me. With good loads its sending a 124gr pill at the same speed as a .357 with 4 inch tube does. When I bought the Kel-Tec in 9mm it was originally just something for the Wife to play with at the indoor range and for house use. I was not wild about the caliber but, she is super recoil sensitive. So with the 9mm she can shoot fast and keep it on target and will practice. When I found out that the better ammo is at .357 results I began to look at the little rifle in a whole new light.
Now that we live on grounds that are over 50 acres the little PCC's are nice to have around in case things go bad

 

[ilikegunspdx]

YEP! I was big on PCC's for "home use" decades before they caught on. Have always had at least one "house shotgun", the standard 12ga pump that so many love. I do still have on but its a safe queen. For Wife and I both I have long proffered the PCC. Light, short, easy to hit with. When I started playing on the net I found the lowly 9mm was not so lowly out of a 16inch tube. That did surprise me. With good loads its sending a 124gr pill at the same speed as a .357 with 4 inch tube does. When I bought the Kel-Tec in 9mm it was originally just something for the Wife to play with at the indoor range and for house use. I was not wild about the caliber but, she is super recoil sensitive. So with the 9mm she can shoot fast and keep it on target and will practice. When I found out that the better ammo is at .357 results I began to look at the little rifle in a whole new light.
Now that we live on grounds that are over 50 acres the little PCC's are nice to have around in case things go bad

I use 12 gauge pump and ye olde double barrels strategically located also. 12 gauge is great HD option imo especially with rounds chosen to meet ur intended use/range.

in terms of SHTF, it's interesting to note that 12 gauge break barrels for SHTF r small/easier to carry when broken down (pic of coach gun broken down below for fun) and they accept adapters which allows them to shoot 22, 380, 9, 38, 45 acp, 45 lc/410, 40 s&w, 20 gauge, 28 gauge etc. so as far as ammo availability in SHTF it covers shotgun and most pistol rounds. So shotgun allows defense and food from squirrels to deer, including birds on the wing.

 

[HB of CJ]

M2 Carbine if you can. Fiddled with and tuned until it runs 100%. Suitable SP ammo either factory or hot hand loads. Just about anybody can use this little rifle. Remember ... 5-6 shots are better than 1 if they all hit. Fun fun fun.

All Oregon State Laws And NFA Rules Apply.

 

[Flymph]

I would honestly choose a lever action in 357mag, like the rossi 92 i have. However for self loading it would have to be the M1 carbine. I have the most experience with that so I am most comfortable shooting one.

 

[69IzhmashAK]

AKM.

 

[Juniper9mm]

AKM or Mini -14. My thinking is availability of ammo and replacement parts.

 

[orygun]

One thing for me on PCCs is its use in urban settings. Last night we had the shooting close by mentioned above and I had my Stribog ready just in case. In other shootings I have noticed perps run into backyards jump fences and in rare cases break into houses to escape cops. So that was what I was "casually" preparing for (kinda halfway between code yellow and orange cuz no specific threat kinda a heightened yellow level).

anyway the reason I choose that gun over others last night for urban defense role due to #1 accuracy and trust. I could train with brn-180 and AR to get to same level of accuracy and trust probably but for me that gun is absolutely uncanny how easy it is to hit targets (even while u are moving or when target is moving). I don't know why it's so easy to shoot accurately.

the second reason is penetration. With self defense 9mm loads I have less concerns about overpenetration or penetration into unintended targets than 556 or #00 buck.

so in a nutshell pcc is first choice for me in urban settings cuz I can very confidently hit multiple targets very quickly and have less fear of unintended consequences. also I don't expect to need to shoot long range in that setting.

if it was open ground I would prefer 223/556. In a vehicle I would prefer pcc with folding brace cuz can shoot it from vehicle with brace folded (or brn-180/ar-180. 12.5" which u can also shoot while folded) ie grab and shoot if needed but still have ability for stabilized shooting if need to shoot at longer range (in contrast to jnstabilized pistol). Just my thoughts. Main thing is to be practiced and confident with whatever u choose or have at ur disposal.

This has to be the best explanation of any reason I've heard for a PCC that made good sense.

 

[USMC-03]

One thing for me on PCCs is its use in urban settings. Last night we had the shooting close by mentioned above and I had my Stribog ready just in case. In other shootings I have noticed perps run into backyards jump fences and in rare cases break into houses to escape cops. So that was what I was "casually" preparing for (kinda halfway between code yellow and orange cuz no specific threat kinda a heightened yellow level).

anyway the reason I choose that gun over others last night for urban defense role due to #1 accuracy and trust. I could train with brn-180 and AR to get to same level of accuracy and trust probably but for me that gun is absolutely uncanny how easy it is to hit targets (even while u are moving or when target is moving). I don't know why it's so easy to shoot accurately.

the second reason is penetration. With self defense 9mm loads I have less concerns about overpenetration or penetration into unintended targets than 556 or #00 buck.

so in a nutshell pcc is first choice for me in urban settings cuz I can very confidently hit multiple targets very quickly and have less fear of unintended consequences. also I don't expect to need to shoot long range in that setting.

if it was open ground I would prefer 223/556. In a vehicle I would prefer pcc with folding brace cuz can shoot it from vehicle with brace folded (or brn-180/ar-180. 12.5" which u can also shoot while folded) ie grab and shoot if needed but still have ability for stabilized shooting if need to shoot at longer range (in contrast to jnstabilized pistol). Just my thoughts. Main thing is to be practiced and confident with whatever u choose or have at ur disposal.

At one time I had a Ruger Super Blackhawk, Ruger Redhawk and Browning 92 all in .44 Magnum. Really liked the cartridge versatility and with a little practice could make regular hits out to almost 200 yards with that carbine.

These days I've settled on .38 Special as a general purpose defense round that's common for the entire family. A couple of .357 lever actions would fit the plan very nicely - if I could scrape the extra funds together.

 

[Gunner3456]

OK, I'll say it
Mini-14

Agreed. In wood and blued so it doesn't look like a battle rifle.

 

[Pandaz3]

One thing for me on PCCs is its use in urban settings. Last night we had the shooting close by mentioned above and I had my Stribog ready just in case. In other shootings I have noticed perps run into backyards jump fences and in rare cases break into houses to escape cops. So that was what I was "casually" preparing for (kinda halfway between code yellow and orange cuz no specific threat kinda a heightened yellow level).

anyway the reason I choose that gun over others last night for urban defense role due to #1 accuracy and trust. I could train with brn-180 and AR to get to same level of accuracy and trust probably but for me that gun is absolutely uncanny how easy it is to hit targets (even while u are moving or when target is moving). I don't know why it's so easy to shoot accurately.

the second reason is penetration. With self defense 9mm loads I have less concerns about overpenetration or penetration into unintended targets than 556 or #00 buck.

so in a nutshell pcc is first choice for me in urban settings cuz I can very confidently hit multiple targets very quickly and have less fear of unintended consequences. also I don't expect to need to shoot long range in that setting.

if it was open ground I would prefer 223/556. In a vehicle I would prefer pcc with folding brace cuz can shoot it from vehicle with brace folded (or brn-180/ar-180. 12.5" which u can also shoot while folded) ie grab and shoot if needed but still have ability for stabilized shooting if need to shoot at longer range (in contrast to jnstabilized pistol). Just my thoughts. Main thing is to be practiced and confident with whatever u choose or have at ur disposal.

9 MM over penetrates more than 5,56 all the time. Counter intuitive I know, I was like you before. The wife prefers her AR-9's, I go 5.56.