No replacement for placement - 9mm compact kills angry brown bear

[The Heretic]

My first job out of college required that I spend a few months in various parts Alaska and then a few months in parts of west to east Montana each year, spring, summer, fall and winter.

I carried a DW in Alaska with the 300 grain Barnes loads made for bear protection. Bought them in Anchorage. Claimed 1400 fps IIRC. I still have them and that is what I would carry if I thought I needed them.

I spent some off-work hours hiking/camping on the Kenai and tromping around Ketchikan and Fairbanks and Denali. I've hunted all over WA and Oregon state. Been through Idaho a few times. Spent some time in GNP in Montana. Been to Yellowstone. Been in the Sierras.

I have never seen any kind of bear, brown or black, in the wild.

On the Kenai I both black and brown bear tracks on the trail, but never saw a bear.

I saw lots of moose, some mtn. goats and sheep, ptarmigan, but no bears.

I never got farther north than Fairbanks - someone else in my group went to Barrow a few times, not in the winter, so he had to be careful about polar bears.

On Elmendorf we would get warnings from time to time about bears that were seen on base, but I never saw any.

I know I have black bears come on my property - I have seen their scat and neighbors have seen the bears and cougars crossing the road, and one cougar mom with a cub taking in some sun in a field adjacent to my property. So I know they are out there, I just have not been lucky enough to ever see them.

I think we have a feral dog that someone dumped recently - seen it on the road, and last week saw it getting into a neighbors garbage. If I see it again I may call animal control. I consider feral dogs probably the most dangerous thing up here on the mountain.

 

[bbbass]

Wow, that is unlucky. I've seen black bears... on the Rogue River, in Topley between Prince George and Prince Rupert (fishing the Babine river system), and in Utah. Sooo strange that you have been all those places around bears and not seen one. Reminds me of some of my elk hunting experiences.

 

[Mark Torrence]

I have had bears in the field behind my house a few times. All over out here on the coast. Seen them all over POW island. There are LOT's of them there.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I do agree with the topic title , there is no replacement for bullet placement.
That said I also agree with The Heretic I feel the guide and client were very lucky.

When you are needing to choose a gun to defend your life , I would suggest choosing the biggest one that you can shoot the best with the least amount of effort or thought on your part in the shooting process.

For me if I was in grizzly country that would be my 03A3 loaded with 220 grain bullets or 180's at the least.
Don't get me wrong I still love my muzzleloaders , but we all know the story about Hugh Glass.
Andy

Andy, you need to read the book, "Brules" by Harry Combs. It's set about 1880 in the four corners area (around Lone Cone Mountain and points south). There's a segment about midway through where our hero goes grizzly hunting. The whole book is darned hard to put down.

https://www.amazon.com/Brules-Harry-Combs/dp/0440217288

 

[ZigZagZeke]

The one thing that seems to have gone unnoticed in the discussion about the guide shooting the bear with a 9mm seems to be keeping your head! MANY folks would just go totally useless in this scenario and do really stupid deadly stuff. Believe me I have seen it many times in my profession. Under extreme life threatening stress many just completely shut down and cease to function. This fellow on the other hand kept on THINKING and acting appropriately placing his shots carefully. THAT is where correct shot placement comes from and THAT is what will save your life.

The only reason I am alive to celebrate my 69th birthday today is that in these kinds of situations, for me, time slows down, thinking becomes more precise, and adrenaline gets channeled in the right direction. There have been a half dozen times in my life where not reacting correctly and deliberately would have been deadly.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

View attachment 316616

The presence of range cattle is another reason (besides animal predators and druggies) that I always carry my model 66 S&W .357 when hunting on the ranch. A rifle can be pretty useless in close quarters.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

The thing that got me is although the outfitter is supposed to have a good rep, and has experience, he chose a single stack 9mm to go to an area where he knew there were bears. Also, he seemed to have chosen to try for the face/head, when anyone who has ever skinned a bear, especially a brown bear, knows they have fairly thick skulls - I remember the report of a fishing partner in Alaska or west coastal Canada who shot a brown bear six times in the back of the head while it was attacking his partner and the bullets reportedly bounced off - with a .44 Magnum.

IMO, this outfitter was lucky.

That said, the bear is dead and the humans are not, humans 1, bear 0.

Yes, a 9mm hot load with 147 grains of a good bullet, can do the job, maybe barely (he did have to shoot 6 times and still the bear wasn't dead). The 9mm+P is about the same as a .357 mag from the same barrel, up to about 150 grains, but where the .357 mag does better is when you go larger, 160 to 200 grain heavy loads, then it outshines the 9mm.

Plus, this guy was shooting a compact 9mm - not a full sized pistol with a longer barrel. I kind of doubt that load was doing the 1100 fps from that pistol he claimed it was.

And barrel length would make a huge difference. My rolling block rifle fires .357 Mag cartridges and with its 28" barrel it gets over 1800 fps out of them (according to the chronograph).

 

[308]

I have never seen any kind of bear, brown or black, in the wild.

That is interesting isn't it? That much time and no sightings, and you were obviously in the right place. I've been in Yellowstone a couple dozen times and I've seen (1) griz about 600yards away and a few black bears. Found a couple 60lb or so griz cubs in a DFW trap by the house in Island Park Idaho and (1) black bear on Prince of Whales Island up in Alaska, but that is about in in all my years.

Locally I've been up on Squaw Mountain hundreds of times and maybe seen 2-3 does. Some guys go up and see all kinds of animals in the wild, but not me so much. On the other hand I seit on my back porch and the local Blacktail Thugs with 4-6point racks stand on my lawn and stare as if to say...what are you looking at?

 

[mjbskwim]

I lived in Shelton as a kid,Pierce county from jr high on(some king co. too) .Spent plenty of time in the hills and down on the coast. Never saw bears.
I moved to Sequim and a couple different times saw bears boot scooting it across the hiway and once in the hills.
Here I have had one sighting and she had 2 cubs. One was a cinnamon phase pup. Man they can run

 

[ZigZagZeke]

That is interesting isn't it? That much time and no sightings, and you were obviously in the right place. I've been in Yellowstone a couple dozen times and I've seen (1) griz about 600yards away and a few black bears. Found a couple 60lb or so griz cubs in a DFW trap by the house in Island Park Idaho and (1) black bear on Prince of Whales Island up in Alaska, but that is about in in all my years.

Locally I've been up on Squaw Mountain hundreds of times and maybe seen 2-3 does. Some guys go up and see all kinds of animals in the wild, but not me so much. On the other hand I seit on my back porch and the local Blacktail Thugs with 4-6point racks stand on my lawn and stare as if to say...what are you looking at?

We have deer on our property all the time, and I had to shoo the turkeys away from my newly planted pasture seed yesterday a couple times, but we have not seen any bear, even though there are reports of some in the area.

 

[bbbass]

On the other hand I seit on my back porch and the local Blacktail Thugs with 4-6point racks stand on my lawn and stare as if to say...what are you looking at?

Just like the house I used to own on Cape Ferrello next to Brookings. I used to go out and yell at the blacktails to get them away from munching my plantings... no joy. Then I started throwing small rocks and they wouldn't leave unless I hit them with one. No longer cute when one climbed the wooded steps up to the deck to eat my wife's favorite miniature rosebush.

 

[Mark Torrence]

The only reason I am alive to celebrate my 69th birthday today is that in these kinds of situations, for me, time slows down, thinking becomes more precise, and adrenaline gets channeled in the right direction. There have been a half dozen times in my life where not reacting correctly and deliberately would have been deadly.

AMEN! For some it takes a great deal of practice. For some it comes naturally. I much like you seem to be one that when the bubblegum hits the fan my actions become very controlled and deliberate. Don't know why just the way it is. One step at a time in order no matter what is happening.

 

[Mark Torrence]

That is interesting isn't it? That much time and no sightings, and you were obviously in the right place. I've been in Yellowstone a couple dozen times and I've seen (1) griz about 600yards away and a few black bears. Found a couple 60lb or so griz cubs in a DFW trap by the house in Island Park Idaho and (1) black bear on Prince of Whales Island up in Alaska, but that is about in in all my years.

Locally I've been up on Squaw Mountain hundreds of times and maybe seen 2-3 does. Some guys go up and see all kinds of animals in the wild, but not me so much. On the other hand I seit on my back porch and the local Blacktail Thugs with 4-6point racks stand on my lawn and stare as if to say...what are you looking at?

You went to POW island and only saw ONE bear? You must have had a blindfold on. I have friends that live in Coffman Cove and have been fishing and bear hunting there many times. Never fail to see at least three to ten bears and so many deer you can't count them. Last time we were there we saw at least four wolves. I shot a 450# bear that now resides on my wall as a rug. Fantastic place.

 

[The Heretic]

I've seen other animals up here. Deer on my property, as close as ten feet from my living room. See them along the road all the time. Rabbits on my patio. Saw a shoat dart out from under my deck once. Saw a large coyote. Rabbits and raccoons and skunks. Saw a bobcat last year. Saw a lynx up in WA state about 20 years ago - thought it was a dog at first.

 

[The Heretic]

 

[bsa1917hunter]

The thing that got me is although the outfitter is supposed to have a good rep, and has experience, he chose a single stack 9mm to go to an area where he knew there were bears. Also, he seemed to have chosen to try for the face/head, when anyone who has ever skinned a bear, especially a brown bear, knows they have fairly thick skulls - I remember the report of a fishing partner in Alaska or west coastal Canada who shot a brown bear six times in the back of the head while it was attacking his partner and the bullets reportedly bounced off - with a .44 Magnum.

IMO, this outfitter was lucky.

That said, the bear is dead and the humans are not, humans 1, bear 0.

Yes, a 9mm hot load with 147 grains of a good bullet, can do the job, maybe barely (he did have to shoot 6 times and still the bear wasn't dead). The 9mm+P is about the same as a .357 mag from the same barrel, up to about 150 grains, but where the .357 mag does better is when you go larger, 160 to 200 grain heavy loads, then it outshines the 9mm.

Plus, this guy was shooting a compact 9mm - not a full sized pistol with a longer barrel. I kind of doubt that load was doing the 1100 fps from that pistol he claimed it was.

The heretic, the outfitter that shot the bear was none other than Phil Shoemaker. He's probably guided and shot more bear in Ak than anyone else. He's also a damn good writer. According to Phil, he left his 44 mag on the plane because he didn't want to deal with the heft of the pistol on the short fishing excursion. He also felt confident in the 9 after testing it side by side with 357 and 44 with the buffalo bore ammo. Here are a couple more threads you guys can check out if you want. They might explain the whole situation a little better. Read some of Phil's posts. He's a very well respected member of the fire:

After Phil Story on the Bear | Handguns | 24hourcampfire

Phil Shoemaker is a Real Life Badass | Hunter's Campfire | 24hourcampfire

 

[The Heretic]

I've read the stories and his account. I read his posts in that forum. I still do not agree with trying to shoot a brown bear in the head with a 9mm, no matter the load, unless that is the only shot you can make. At the wrong angle, a shot to the head of any animal can skid along the skull or even bounce off. I've had it happen to me when I have administered a coup de grace to deer and other animals. A bear has a very thick skull - especially from the front.

 

[Mark Torrence]

That looks like a lot of people I know!

 

[clearconscience]

Excuse my ignorance, but why do people just to the .41 and .44 cal for maximum stopping power?
Personally I wouldn't go into grizzly country without a S&W 500.

I recently switched my woods gun/back up gun to a G20 10mm. I used to carry a 9mm. I feel much more confident with that.

I've never much worried about 4 legged creatures. It's the 2 legged evil and stupid that I fewr most.