No Mention of the self inflicted gun shot wound at the gun show in Stevenson WA?

Spitpatch · Jun 5, 2012

Humans + Firearms (Mechanical device) = Failure. Eventually. And, yes, guns DO "just go off" (because they are mechanical devices). However, they do not load themselves, nor point themselves at humans.

I think the original issue was why wasn't this more widely covered in the press?

Well the answer to that is, that the instrument has yet to be invented that can measure the propensity for Law Enforcement to modify the documentation of events to their favor.

Misterbill · Jun 5, 2012

Spitpatch said:
Humans + Firearms (Mechanical device) = Failure. Eventually. And, yes, guns DO "just go off" (because they are mechanical devices). However, they do not load themselves, nor point themselves at humans.

I think the original issue was why wasn't this more widely covered in the press?

Well the answer to that is, that the instrument has yet to be invented that can measure the propensity for Law Enforcement to modify the documentation of events to their favor.

They "just go off?"

So you're telling me that my loaded gun, sitting in my bedside drawer is likely to just randomly discharge? or the one in my holster right now? Please explain the specific mechanical failure you envision being responsible for this type of malfunction. Because I've certainly never run into it in over 40 years of shooting. I've seen a gun fire when dropped. I've seen safeties malfunction (with no negligent discharge) but I've never yet seen a gun randomly discharge absent human intervention. Sounds like a re-holstering accident to me. Perfectly human, yes, they happen even to generally very careful people. But hardly a case of a weapon malfunction.

"They just go off" sounds like something right off the VPC website.

jdubl · Jun 5, 2012

There are some really unsympathetic people here it seems, acting like the guy is bashing firearms by defending his dad. I feel horrible for this guy that he shot himself, and almost embarrassed for him. From what i've heard about him, i can't see gross blatant negligence being the cause. Its too bad it happened, but it would be a bit more scary if it was a weapon malfunction (factory) as opposed to operator negligence of some kind. Maybe it was a holster problem, or some bad custom gunsmithing (or DIY) or whatever, i don't want to speculate too much and don't have the knowledge to do so anyway. I would hope, and like to assume, he wasn't handling the gun an an obviously unsafe manner.

Flopsweat · Jun 6, 2012

jdubl said:
There are some really unsympathetic people here it seems, acting like the guy is bashing firearms by defending his dad. I feel horrible for this guy that he shot himself, and almost embarrassed for him. From what i've heard about him, i can't see gross blatant negligence being the cause. Its too bad it happened, but it would be a bit more scary if it was a weapon malfunction (factory) as opposed to operator negligence of some kind. Maybe it was a holster problem, or some bad custom gunsmithing (or DIY) or whatever, i don't want to speculate too much and don't have the knowledge to do so anyway. I would hope, and like to assume, he wasn't handling the gun an an obviously unsafe manner.

I'm sure that's what most of us hope. It's just disappointing to hear of someone with that much experience having that spectacular a lapse in front of so many people. Makes you feel bad for him, but it ticks you off too. None of us buy the excuse, and none of us should.

Spitpatch · Jun 6, 2012

Misterbill, an absolute was used, saying "guns just don't go off". Well, they do. NO, it is not "likely" your gun by your bedside will go off. It's not even remotely probable. I merely brought attention to the mechanical fact that it is POSSIBLE and HAS HAPPENED, that a gun not interacted with a human HAS gone off. There may be many scenarios, but an easily imaginable one would be a fatigued sear that finally gives way under tension. This distinct (though remote) and easily understandable POSSIBILITY negates the absolute statement of impossibility.

They also (and this is MUCH MORE PROBABLE) can "just go off" (being handled by a human) when the handler is doing everything correctly. The list of imaginable scenarios here is quite great, and it would not take much exploration to find an experienced gun handler to whom this has happened. It is this greater probability that requires us to maintain muzzle control. We recognize the greater probability of the weapon firing when we interact with it (even with all done correctly), but we insure that if (when) the event happens, no damage is done.

asiparks · Jun 6, 2012

Want more facts, but I'm pretty much in the camp that most modern pistols have several safety features that require multiple, simultaneous actions or failures in order to discharge, one of them being a finger on the trigger.

@dontbeignorant, are you "Vikki" by chance ? Perhaps if you give an account of the exact circumstances around the discharge, people might be less doubting.
Was his hand on the weapon at the time? Why was he carrying loaded at the Gunshow ? Did he believe it unloaded but leave a round chambered ? What was the make/model of the pistol ?

This time, no one else was hurt, but that was by sheer luck, not by design. Whilst we do all make mistakes, we usually take extra care not to when they can result in injury or death.

Spitpatch · Jun 7, 2012

There may be a misperception here which mistakenly puts me in a position saying the cause of this incident was a freak mechanical malfunction. That is NOT my contention. None of us knows the specific scenario that caused this (like asiparks, I'd like more facts). My effort was to merely correct a statement of absolutes saying guns cannot ever discharge on their own.

It is interesting that persons (like myself) who have witnessed a safety malfunction with no negligent discharge would disbelieve the possibility of a sear failure. In my moderate experience, most safety mechanisms are of much more rugged and reliable construction than the necessarily tenuously-mated and delicate mechanism of a sear. The paralell in automotive terms would be to have witnessed the distinct possibility of a driveline breaking, and yet declare a universal joint failure impossible.

unklekippy · Jun 7, 2012

I am not a Washington resident, and I in no way want this to be viewed as me "pointing fingers", but in Oregon we are asked at the door(sometimes repeatedly) if we have any loaded guns. If we have guns at all, we are to have them inspected and the breech ziptied open. We are not allowed to conceal carry at a gun show. Are these laws different in WA? Can you concealed carry at gun shows there? Does his law enforcement status allow him to carry where others may not? Was he open carrying? Was this a firearm that he was intending to sell at the gun show? Are you required to show all weapons upon entering a gun show, then having their action locked open? I want real answers, as I am only familiar with the laws of OR, and even then I'm not so sure how "in the know" I am. I very much hope for the recovery of the individual and I do not envy his position. The best man in my parents wedding was shot in the forehead by his little brother with an unloaded gun. It was a 22lr and obviously he survived, but s*** happens. Mistakes happen.

It doesn't matter whose dad this is. This is not a personal attack. An incident like this makes all gun owners look bad. I believe that is enough to allow us to ask these questions and maybe even do what we can to prevent this from happening in the future. Every incident like this erases the good of 100 cases where a firearm saved the day in the eyes of the media. In my opinion, that is why this matters. Kip.

shayne · Jun 7, 2012

Yes in Washington when at a gun show all guns that enter must be unloaded and usually zip_tied.

billdeserthills · Jun 7, 2012

I was near a booth at a gunshow where an unintentional discharge took place.
Turned out the vendor had put a loaded revolver into a toolbox & someone reaching
their hand inside without looking first. Now that particular show has the city po po come
by & have a good look at-- I mean harass all the innocent vendors who remain, as for me
Ike Witt ,Damn show was only a money maker if some illegal deal was being made. Once I
began to figure out the works it just started sucking the fun out of that show.

As to the post at hand, There will be no way I know
apart from self-incrimination to find out if this gun
had it's trigger pulled. I would certainly be sorely
disapointed to find my 1911 (or any gun I use) can
of it's own volition simply fire itself, any old time it
wants to.

Bigfoot · Jun 8, 2012

shayne said:
Yes in Washington when at a gun show all guns that enter must be unloaded and usually zip_tied.

So here we have a pistol that not only fires all by itself it also loads and chambers itself. No charges filed huh?

M67 · Jun 8, 2012

Humans make mistakes and any mechanical device can fail. It would be nice to know the specific facts of what happened.

Was it human error or a mechanical problem, etc....

I would like to know all of the facts before i rush to judgement in this case. Like the type of firearm, the holster involved, etc..

On the plus side no one was injured except for the person handling the firearm, which is a good thing to those that were nearby.

Without more information, all we can do is make speculations.

And is it possible he was allowed to bring in a loaded firearm, since he was in law enforcement?

I am glad he is expected to recover from his wound and hopefully he will recover fully with no long term damage ( other than to his pride ).

8ball · Jun 9, 2012

shayne said:
Yes in Washington when at a gun show all guns that enter must be unloaded and usually zip_tied.

I think that is just a local WAC policy, not the WA law for gun shows per se. This was a small gun show organized by Cascade Sportmens Club according to their website.

Hope he recovers OK. It could have been worse.