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Aloha, Mark
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Aloha, Mark
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With the level of surveillance available to law enforcement today, there is no need for no knock raids except for the most rare instance. It's been proven they can listen in on our phones even when turned off.
They can access our car cameras and microphones whenever they want. Tiny little transmitters and cameras can be put anywhere, drones, the ISP's, the list of available surveillance methods are endless.
Snag him when he's out. Video and audio evidence gathered before the snatch makes conviction pretty simple, hard to refute the eye of a camera.
No need to put citizens or LEO at risk. Bad intel, wrong/outdated address, deliberate misleading information from unreliable sources, and even vengeful ex's are all too common.
And, in the extremely rare event of the real and unavoidable no knock entry, EVERY PERSON INVOLVED, FROM THE JUDGE ISSUING THE WARRANT, DOWN THE LINE TO THE LOWEST RANKED OFFICER WILL BE HELD PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY BAD INFORMATION.
Start holding an entire police department responsible for a bad raid will result in very careful confirmation of every tiny little detail.
They can access our car cameras and microphones whenever they want. Tiny little transmitters and cameras can be put anywhere, drones, the ISP's, the list of available surveillance methods are endless.
Snag him when he's out. Video and audio evidence gathered before the snatch makes conviction pretty simple, hard to refute the eye of a camera.
No need to put citizens or LEO at risk. Bad intel, wrong/outdated address, deliberate misleading information from unreliable sources, and even vengeful ex's are all too common.
And, in the extremely rare event of the real and unavoidable no knock entry, EVERY PERSON INVOLVED, FROM THE JUDGE ISSUING THE WARRANT, DOWN THE LINE TO THE LOWEST RANKED OFFICER WILL BE HELD PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY BAD INFORMATION.
Start holding an entire police department responsible for a bad raid will result in very careful confirmation of every tiny little detail.
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Funniest thing I think I've ever read on this site.
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3/4 of the way through. So far so good. Waiting to comment after listening g to it all. Thanks for posting...don't close it yet!
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Apparently Putin did a No Knock on Ukraine...and I don't think he'll qualify for immunity either.
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I don't agree with closing threads. This one will stay open as far as I am concerned.
Member 53328
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I find it funny that people are so quick to point fingers at LEOs and in the same breath defend the criminal/associates without knowing the backstory or the criminality involved.
I don't think no knock warrants should become a regular practice but I definitely believe they have their place when officer/public safety is involved.
The element of surprise is pretty beneficial whether in war over seas or high stakes LE operations.
All of this is of course my own opinion.
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Finished the podcast last night in bed, because nothing says relaxing bedtime stories like listening to stories about no knock warrants 
.
I found they provided a good perspective and not far from my posts in the no knock thread that was closed earlier in the month. Basically: a) They are rarely used, b) they are EXTREMELY hard to get from judges (side note, in some / many jurisdictions, the DA's office reviews warrants before they even get to a judge and they will not approve even application for a no knock if they don't think it is justified, c) the alternatives often suck more than using a no knock...that is why they exist.
They laid out some interesting facts in this case that highlight their and my points even further. The suspects they were seeking were wanted for homicide (likely for another as well). They had been using a stolen car for a few months, one of the ways they tracked them down. Police tried to pull them over twice before them, but they fled and the pursuit appears to have been called off (THIS is what happens when you limit LEO's from doing their jobs by looking at things in a vacuum; non pursuit policies appear to have led to the point where they needed a no know warrant. I've pointed this out before, when you take away one tool because it is dangerous, the next tool might be more "dangerous." They committed additional armed robberies after fleeing police. They also stole a Maserati (while using the stolen Mercedes).
So how many rounds would have been fired if they would have knocked and announced themselves? With this crew, likely lots, by both sides.
This crew had been posting their crimes on social media, because this is what crooks do. They also included in their posts that they possessed a 223. Very likely the best way to reduce risk in this scenario was with a no knock. I covered in the other thread (as they did in this podcast) all the possible dangers from other types of attempts at apprehension. (Letting them get to a car is not a good option, the transitional space between home and car has its own issues, especially since there were multiple suspects and they may not all leave at the same time, etc.)
Arresting murder suspects, who flaunt their weapons on social media, have committed an increasing number of armed robberies and car thefts, showing they are becoming bolder and more unhinged, is dangerous. Very dangerous. Every option is far from perfect. The longer you wait, the more likely one of our family members is going to be their next victim.
As for the person who was shot, very sorry anyone was shot. It is, however, a cautionary tale. We know of multiple armed robberies, a murder or two, two stolen vehicles, social media posts about the crimes and weapons. If he was a "friend" what are the chances that he was not aware of their lifestyle? Possible, but approaching 0% in my opinion / experience.
As humans and especially in this modern world, we expect to find a clean solution for problems. In the real world of dealing with evil, sociopathic criminals it just does not exist and bad things are sadly going to happen when they are confronted. Could not agree more that we should continue striving to reduce negative outcomes, because the euphemism "negative outcomes" often means something terrible happens to someone other than the bad guy.
Some of noted all the alleged tools LEO can use to spy on suspects. Sure some exist but many / most of the cool toys are scarce, expensive, take extra manhours and require additional warrants (ok, but again extra time needed when dangerous suspects are on the loose). Minneapolis had about 100 homicides last year, two a week. Plus thousands of other violent crimes. The resource just don't exist for nearly any department to use these on a regular basis.
Thanks @1775usmc for posting this information and facilitating this discussion. Sorry for the long dialog but this is topic where short solutions do not exist.
[h3][/h3]
.I found they provided a good perspective and not far from my posts in the no knock thread that was closed earlier in the month. Basically: a) They are rarely used, b) they are EXTREMELY hard to get from judges (side note, in some / many jurisdictions, the DA's office reviews warrants before they even get to a judge and they will not approve even application for a no knock if they don't think it is justified, c) the alternatives often suck more than using a no knock...that is why they exist.
They laid out some interesting facts in this case that highlight their and my points even further. The suspects they were seeking were wanted for homicide (likely for another as well). They had been using a stolen car for a few months, one of the ways they tracked them down. Police tried to pull them over twice before them, but they fled and the pursuit appears to have been called off (THIS is what happens when you limit LEO's from doing their jobs by looking at things in a vacuum; non pursuit policies appear to have led to the point where they needed a no know warrant. I've pointed this out before, when you take away one tool because it is dangerous, the next tool might be more "dangerous." They committed additional armed robberies after fleeing police. They also stole a Maserati (while using the stolen Mercedes).
So how many rounds would have been fired if they would have knocked and announced themselves? With this crew, likely lots, by both sides.
This crew had been posting their crimes on social media, because this is what crooks do. They also included in their posts that they possessed a 223. Very likely the best way to reduce risk in this scenario was with a no knock. I covered in the other thread (as they did in this podcast) all the possible dangers from other types of attempts at apprehension. (Letting them get to a car is not a good option, the transitional space between home and car has its own issues, especially since there were multiple suspects and they may not all leave at the same time, etc.)
Arresting murder suspects, who flaunt their weapons on social media, have committed an increasing number of armed robberies and car thefts, showing they are becoming bolder and more unhinged, is dangerous. Very dangerous. Every option is far from perfect. The longer you wait, the more likely one of our family members is going to be their next victim.
As for the person who was shot, very sorry anyone was shot. It is, however, a cautionary tale. We know of multiple armed robberies, a murder or two, two stolen vehicles, social media posts about the crimes and weapons. If he was a "friend" what are the chances that he was not aware of their lifestyle? Possible, but approaching 0% in my opinion / experience.
As humans and especially in this modern world, we expect to find a clean solution for problems. In the real world of dealing with evil, sociopathic criminals it just does not exist and bad things are sadly going to happen when they are confronted. Could not agree more that we should continue striving to reduce negative outcomes, because the euphemism "negative outcomes" often means something terrible happens to someone other than the bad guy.
Some of noted all the alleged tools LEO can use to spy on suspects. Sure some exist but many / most of the cool toys are scarce, expensive, take extra manhours and require additional warrants (ok, but again extra time needed when dangerous suspects are on the loose). Minneapolis had about 100 homicides last year, two a week. Plus thousands of other violent crimes. The resource just don't exist for nearly any department to use these on a regular basis.
Thanks @1775usmc for posting this information and facilitating this discussion. Sorry for the long dialog but this is topic where short solutions do not exist.
[h3][/h3]
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Thank you. I appreciate your insight. There are no perfect solutions for a very imperfect world.Finished the podcast last night in bed, because nothing says relaxing bedtime stories like listening to stories about no knock warrants
I found they provided a good perspective and not far from my posts in the no knock thread that was closed earlier in the month. Basically: a) They are rarely used, b) they are EXTREMELY hard to get from judges (side note, in some / many jurisdictions, the DA's office reviews warrants before they even get to a judge and they will not approve even application for a no knock if they don't think it is justified, c) the alternatives often suck more than using a no knock...that is why they exist.
They laid out some interesting facts in this case that highlight their and my points even further. The suspects they were seeking were wanted for homicide (likely for another as well). They had been using a stolen car for a few months, one of the ways they tracked them down. Police tried to pull them over twice before them, but they fled and the pursuit appears to have been called off (THIS is what happens when you limit LEO's from doing their jobs by looking at things in a vacuum; non pursuit policies appear to have led to the point where they needed a no know warrant. I've pointed this out before, when you take away one tool because it is dangerous, the next tool might be more "dangerous." They committed additional armed robberies after fleeing police. They also stole a Maserati (while using the stolen Mercedes).
So how many rounds would have been fired if they would have knocked and announced themselves? With this crew, likely lots, by both sides.
This crew had been posting their crimes on social media, because this is what crooks do. They also included in their posts that they possessed a 223. Very likely the best way to reduce risk in this scenario was with a no knock. I covered in the other thread (as they did in this podcast) all the possible dangers from other types of attempts at apprehension. (Letting them get to a car is not a good option, the transitional space between home and car has its own issues, especially since there were multiple suspects and they may not all leave at the same time, etc.)
Arresting murder suspects, who flaunt their weapons on social media, have committed an increasing number of armed robberies and car thefts, showing they are becoming bolder and more unhinged, is dangerous. Very dangerous. Every option is far from perfect. The longer you wait, the more likely one of our family members is going to be their next victim.
As for the person who was shot, very sorry anyone was shot. It is, however, a cautionary tale. We know of multiple armed robberies, a murder or two, two stolen vehicles, social media posts about the crimes and weapons. If he was a "friend" what are the chances that he was not aware of their lifestyle? Possible, but approaching 0% in my opinion / experience.
As humans and especially in this modern world, we expect to find a clean solution for problems. In the real world of dealing with evil, sociopathic criminals it just does not exist and bad things are sadly going to happen when they are confronted. Could not agree more that we should continue striving to reduce negative outcomes, because the euphemism "negative outcomes" often means something terrible happens to someone other than the bad guy.
Some of noted all the alleged tools LEO can use to spy on suspects. Sure some exist but many / most of the cool toys are scarce, expensive, take extra manhours and require additional warrants (ok, but again extra time needed when dangerous suspects are on the loose). Minneapolis had about 100 homicides last year, two a week. Plus thousands of other violent crimes. The resource just don't exist for nearly any department to use these on a regular basis.
Thanks @1775usmc for posting this information and facilitating this discussion. Sorry for the long dialog but this is topic where short solutions do not exist.
[h3][/h3]
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I used to have a blank-check attitude toward law enforcement. Then came the so-called "Russia-Gate" which exposed the extreme corruption of the FBI. If the FBI can become that corrupt in falsely justifying its actions, how much more so for a local law enforcement agency? My attitude toward the blank check for law enforcement is much more tempered now, and consequently I'm no longer in favor of no-knock warrants.
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Fair point. Federal law enforcement is a different world. I knew several people that were on task forces that included Feds. I never heard a single one speak well of their system. Individual agents / officers sure, but not how they work in general. They do things that local law enforcement would consider horrible ethics to criminal. One person I knew was convinced FBI stood for Famous But Incompetent.
IMHO, it's okay to question law enforcement. There are bad officers and bad agencies; this is one way they get fixed. Blanket statements that cops are bad is not (this is CLEARLY not what you are saying and "tempered" is a good description). Like with most complex subjects in life, most have never been exposed to the "why" behind how processes work in the manner they do. Forums like this allow for dialog of this nature.
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