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NFA Trust Question

Discussion in 'NFA Weapon Discussion' started by Roger65, Nov 8, 2014.

  1. Roger65

    Roger65 Portland Active Member

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    So I have a trust prepared and ready to be signed. The question I have is about the two witnesses. Can they just be other employees of the bank where my notary is? Anyone know of a better place to get it signed and notarized?

    Also, I have been advised not to pay for items purchased by the trust with a personal credit card.
    It has been suggested that I need to start a new bank account in the name of the trust to make purchases owned by the trust. Anyone care to chime in?
     
  2. TapRackNGo

    TapRackNGo PNW Well-Known Member

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    I had the bank employees be a witness. I dont think payment matters. Mine have all been paid with personal.
     
  3. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    You don't want anyone that's named in the trust to sign as a witness.
     
  4. misplacedtexan

    misplacedtexan Beaverton, OR Active Member

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    Trustees can't generally serve as a witness. Other than that you could grab Joe Blow off the sidewalk and have him sign.

    As far as the funds with the trust bit. I paid cash for my suppressor and stamp, and the FFL sent a money order with his name on it with the Form 4. For the SBR lower I did on a Form 1 I just did a electronic check transfer. The ATF doesn't care who's name is on the money as long as it's green.
     
  5. spectra

    spectra The Couve Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    Bank employee was my witness and my form 4 was on my debit card. Wish they would bring back the efile....
     
  6. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Form 1's are still E-File. Turn around time is really short on those.
     
  7. spectra

    spectra The Couve Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    Yes will hopefully be doing one of those.
     
  8. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I just hope the ATF don't shut the door on the gun trusts with the ruling that's up for review.
     
  9. PDXSparky

    PDXSparky Keizer / Hillsboro Well-Known Member

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    That has been pushed out to May, 2015 at the earliest.

    Witness for signing a trust? I only witness I had was the notary who stamped my trust.

    You do not need to start a new back account. It doesn't matter how the NFA items are payed for.
     
  10. Meridian7750

    Meridian7750 Portland Area Well-Known Member

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    Another option is to have your (or any) insurance office notarize and witness...
    They usually have a Notary on staff, and often provide the service free of charge.
     
  11. ThePhonMan

    ThePhonMan Spokanistan Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

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    This question came up a while back in a different thread and I offered this information for review...

    Regarding how you pay for things acquired by your trust…

    There’s a concept used by certain government agencies (IRS, DOJ and Treasury in particular) known as “piercing the corporate veil”. Once they have decided they want to target you (for whatever reason), the usual technique is to determine if “commingling of funds” has occurred. The standard they use is: Did you use any personal funds, accounts, etc. for corporate/LLC/Trust expenses or business? OR Did you use any corporate/LLC/Trust funds, accounts, etc. for personal expenses or business. If you can answer yes to either question they can call your legal vehicle (Corporation, LLC, Partnership, Trust, etc.) into question. This provides them with an opportunity to remove any protections afforded by the legal vehicle you used to do business by claiming it is not valid and its creation was only intended as some kind of tax or legal dodge. Defending yourself is intended to be costly so you'll give up and take your punishment like a good boy (deserved or not).

    I’m not sure this approach has ever been used against any NFA trusts to date but with the current administration I wouldn’t put it past them. Once the G-men decide they want to go after you they usually don’t care how legitimate the process is they use, as long as they get what they want; you. And this opportunity will only get worse when people start using personal debit/credit cards to pay the tax stamp fees for e-filed trust applications. A paranoid person might ask if this setup is an intended or unintended consequence of the new e-file process?

    You have two choices to avoid this to the best of your ability:

    1) Open an account in the Trust name and use it ONLY for trust business. Additionally, make all deposits into that account using cash so your funding process is at least one step removed from direct attachment to your personal accounts.

    2) Use cash to acquire cashier’s checks from your bank to cover Trust expenses (tax stamp, suppressors, SBRs, etc.). You can inquire when they have been cashed with a simple phone call to the bank (or even walk in and ask them to check for you). Obviously you can’t e-file if you use option #2.

    I’m not that paranoid (or a lawyer) and the value of this advice is directly proportional to how much you have just paid for it so if you disagree feel free to ignore me. :)
     
  12. misplacedtexan

    misplacedtexan Beaverton, OR Active Member

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    That's for trusts, llc's, corps, etc that actually do things. If you are just holding property with the trust (or whatever) it won't fall under that. The whole idea behind that is if you are using the trust to DO something illegal, and are only trying to use it as a front to avoid having yourself prosecuted.
     
  13. ThePhonMan

    ThePhonMan Spokanistan Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

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    Well you and I both know that but does Eric Holder know that? :)
     
  14. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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  15. Roger65

    Roger65 Portland Active Member

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    What was quoted to me was that it is a technical violation of the straw purchase law for me (a person) to pay for a gun owned by my trust (legally a different person). This was written by a lawyer.

    Is it a big violation? No. Anyone ever been prosecuted? No. But it is a technical violation they could use if they ever decide to come after trusts, or you, or NFA items in general. There is a form you can fill out to make it legal, where it states that you are technically making a contribution to the trust, which is then buying and paying for the NFA item.
     
  16. misplacedtexan

    misplacedtexan Beaverton, OR Active Member

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    I fail to see how it would be a straw purchase if you were A) Grantor or B) Trustee. Either person has the legal ability to act on behalf of the trust and you're buying the firearm for the trust as a trustee....
     
  17. Roger65

    Roger65 Portland Active Member

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    Yeah I fail to see it too. But I'm not a lawyer. This advice was in the FAQ section of the site where I purchased my trust. I'm not supposed to post text from the material I purchased from them because it is copyrighted, so I won't do that.

    But they are a respected source, guntrustlawyer.com, and they seem to feel I should open a bank account in the name of the trust, if I want to be really tight legally.
     
  18. Modeler

    Modeler Molalla, Oregon Soccer Fan

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    So tiring reading the "lawyer trust vs. Quicken trust" and "checking account vs. no checking account" arguments repeated over and over again....

    One thing is for sure; if you've paid a lawyer to give you advice and you don't follow it you're a fool who has needlessly parted himself from his money.

    Another old saying comes to mind: "A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client".

    Do what you want and be prepared to deal with whatever consequences may come now or in the future. If those consequences are negative and you've had the above-named client you'll have no one to blame but yourself.
     
  19. misplacedtexan

    misplacedtexan Beaverton, OR Active Member

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    I shelled out my $450 to get my trust drafted up just so. Had the "how to pay" discussion with said lawyer. The gist of it was: It's just holding property, doesn't matter how you pay. You're acting as the trust when you buy things for it. Just don't do business (buy a business) with the trust and you're fine to pay however.
     
  20. PDXSparky

    PDXSparky Keizer / Hillsboro Well-Known Member

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    Not that I'm a lawyer, but this is pretty much my thinking as well. A trust is like a box, you built the box then buy stuff and put it in the box. The box can't buy stuff, even it there is a checking account with the name "Box".