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News Fail..Army reconsiders use of M4 in Afghanistan...

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by CharlesAFerg, May 25, 2010.

  1. CharlesAFerg

    CharlesAFerg Beaverton Active Member

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    First of all, I'm not exactly a proponent of the 5.56mm NATO round, but who gave them the info for this article? Also, why is it that nobody ever distinguishes the 7.62x51MM NATO round and the 7.62x39mm RU?! I run into so many people who think they know a thing or two about firearms, but don't know the difference, so they make them as one.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...mys-use-m-rifles-afghanistan/?test=latestnews

    Updated May 25, 2010
    U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
    FOXNews.com
    The U.S. military is re-evaluating the Army’s use of the M4 rifle in Afghanistan following concerns that the Taliban’s primitive AK-47’s are proving more effective.

    [..Really? More effective..?]


    The M4 is an updated version of the M16, which was designed for close quarters combat in Vietnam. But while the weapon is better suited for the kind of urban warfare common in Iraq, some have questioned whether it is deadly and accurate for Afghanistan – where U.S. troops often find themselves in long-range combat.

    [It wasn't designed for Vietnam, it was designed for the cold war, and a theory that a larger ammunition capacity would create the illusion of greater firepower. Lighter rifle with more, yet still lighter rounds.]

    An Army study found that the 5.56mm bullets fired from the M4s don’t retain enough velocity past 1,000 feet to kill an enemy. In Afghanistan, forces are often up to 2,500 feet apart.

    “It just makes no sense,” said Maj. Gen. Robert Scales Jr., a Fox News military analyst.

    Scales said the M4 is “unsuitable” for Afghan terrain and “notoriously unreliable” in the first place. The Army Times reported on an Army weapons test three years ago that found the M4 performed worse than three other newer carbines when subjected to an “extreme dust test.”


    Problems with the M4 locking up were also cited in a study last year on a July 2008 firefight that left nine U.S. soldiers dead in eastern Afghanistan.

    The Taliban are meanwhile using heavier bullets that allow them to fire at U.S. and NATO troops from distances that are out of range of the M4.

    [Uh, isn't the range 300yds on the AK47? Even if the 5.56 loses power after 500, look what it's up against. That, and of course the accuracy of the rifles and those firing them.]

    To counter these tactics, the U.S. military is designating nine soldiers in each infantry company to serve as sharpshooters, according to Maj. Thomas Ehrhart, who wrote the Army study. The sharpshooters are equipped with the new M110 sniper rifle, which fires a larger 7.62mm round and is accurate to at least 2,500 feet.

    As for what could ultimately replace the M4, the Army’s center for small-arms development is trying to find a solution.

    Col. Douglas Tamilio, program manager for U.S. Army firearms at the Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey, said the M4 has the advantage of more-rapid firepower.

    “The 5.56 caliber is more lethal since it can put more rounds on target,” he told The Associated Press. But he acknowledged the weapon is much less effective at 2,000 feet out.

    [..and the AK47 is..?]

    A possible compromise would be an interim-caliber round combining the best characteristics of the 5.56 mm and 7.62 cartridges, Tamilio said.

    Scales said the U.S. military simply needs to engineer a better weapon – he said the M8, a weapon that was under development before being halted several years ago, could be revived and improved for Afghanistan.

    “We’re the world’s largest superpower. Why don’t we just make one,” Scales said. “This isn’t rocket science. We’re not putting a man on the moon here.”

    [I found this unrelated, but funny, because we really AREN'T putting a man on the moon anymore because of the president cutting Ares/Constellation. ..Which is something for another conversation..]
     
  2. toobigtofail

    toobigtofail PDX Member

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    The Taliban uses old Mosin Nagant and Lee Enfield rifles as long distance snipers. I think that's the heavier bullet using guns that they are referring to in this article.
     
  3. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Western OR Well-Known Member

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    There's bound to be a few Persian Mauser 8x57s floating around over there too. With 29" of barrel and a decent peep sight system they are lethal on humans at well over 600 meters. Especially in the hands of someone that has been shooting it since the the Soviets were around in the '80s.
     
  4. Bhowe

    Bhowe Seattle Member

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    MK 12 SPR? 600-1000yd kills? Reporter with bad info?
     
  5. ZeroRing

    ZeroRing 26th District, WA Active Member

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    "FEET"?? Not just once but SEVERAL times the article uses FEET rather than yards or meters...

    Which makes me wonder... did the info that the article was based on use feet as well, or did some idiot purposely change the yards/meters to "feet" because it makes the M4 sound even weaker?? :huh:
     
  6. Mac_Fan

    Mac_Fan Beaverton Active Member

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  7. CharlesAFerg

    CharlesAFerg Beaverton Active Member

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  8. jordanvraptor

    jordanvraptor Oregon City, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I just rolled my eyes at that article. Sadly, many of these experts are being asked for info they know little of first hand. I remember watching CNN during the Gulf War and their expert was a former Air Force General amd they were asking him about Marine amphibious operations. I think I screamed at the tv on that one... :(
     
  9. wired

    wired Yakima Well-Known Member

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    They should have reconsidered the entire platform in about 1963
     
  10. Martini_Up

    Martini_Up NW USA Well-Known Member

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    77 gr. boolits.
     
  11. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    Pff! The all-knowing Gunner says they stop at Rabbits.
     
  12. SON*OF*LIBERTY

    SON*OF*LIBERTY Forest Grove Active Member

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    The rifle confiscated or obtained from captured and detained insurgent "snipers" in afgan has been tabuk and romak/psl type rifles that are semi auto lengthened ak receivers that are chambered for 7.62x54r.
     
  13. CharlesAFerg

    CharlesAFerg Beaverton Active Member

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    What was it that made you scream at the tv? What bad info was there? Was it the fact that they were speaking of amphib?
     
  14. toobigtofail

    toobigtofail PDX Member

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    well -- okay -- but in this NYTimes article, it says Enfields and Mosin Nagants:

    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/19/a-firsthand-look-at-firefights-in-marja/?hp

    Second, how are they equipped? Kilo Company’s battlefield collections, along with reviews of recent photographs of armed Taliban fighters and information shared by an officer who gathered data from across Helmand Province, offer insights. Among the captured rifles were two variants of the Lee-Enfield rifle line. These are bolt-action rifles with design roots reaching to the late 19th century, when conventional armies favored heavier, long-barreled rifles that fired more powerful ammunition than what is predominant in military use today.
    C.J. Chivers/The New York Times

    One of the rifles had been manufactured at the Long Branch arsenal in Toronto in 1942. The other was manufactured at the Government Rifle Factory in Ishapore, India; its date was not clear. Photographs of the Taliban have also shown a few of their gunmen carrying old Mosin-Nagant bolt-action rifles. These were a similar czarist (then Soviet) arm of the same era.
     
  15. branchbuster

    branchbuster Albany Active Member

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    Wow, full circle. The original stoner weapon system was 308.
     
  16. alfack

    alfack Marysville Member

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    Gee, it's a good thing the M4 is NOT the ONLY weapon in the Armys' arsenal.

    Give me a break. No really.
     
  17. ZeroRing

    ZeroRing 26th District, WA Active Member

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    EXACTLY. Several tools for several different tasks, each suited to the particular task at hand. The M4 is perfectly suited for what it's intended use is. Saying the M4 should be dumped in favor of a larger caliber is like saying the Bradley should be dumped in favor of a larger "caliber" Abrams.

    For that matter why use a rocket when they are so ineffective when compared to a tactical nuke??
     
  18. gearhead

    gearhead NC Active Member

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    i'm of the opinion that we should have adopted the FAL like so many other countries. A damn fine battle rifle if ever there was one.
     
  19. wired

    wired Yakima Well-Known Member

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    Also dirt sensitive, uncontrollable in full auto fire and too heavy recoil for most conscript soldiers. The vast majority of combat occurs under 200 meters and using an overpowered gun doesnt work well in a military application.
     
  20. gearhead

    gearhead NC Active Member

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    i have yet to see a firearm that isn't sensitive to dirt. (the fs2000 is supposed to be pretty resistant - anyone have any experience with it?) take care of your weapons, and they take care of you. you're right, full auto is ridiculous on an FAL. personally i'm a fan of the adjustable gas system and ruggedness. plus, at 200m i can penetrate light cover better than a 5.56. I've yet to see combat with any rifle, but based on talks with alot of guys who have, it's my choice of weapon.