New to Muzzle Loaders...Help please.

[waglockfan]

So, I purchased my first muzzleloader. I actually got it from a member here, I think I got myself a good deal but I had a few questions. I got a Traditions Vortek Northwest Magnum .50 cal. It has a black synthetic stock and handguard, the satin-gray cerakote finish, and a ported 28" barrel. I thought that was unique and had not seen that on all the different ML's I have looked at online and in various stores locally.

This is the older model without the Accelerator breech plug (tool-less removable) and it looks as if the breech plug that is in there is fixed. Also, the nipple looks like it takes number 4 muzzle caps, not number 11, and not the 209 primers.

Is it possible to convert this barrel with custom machining to take the Accelerator breech plug?

Is the breech plug that is in there now removable with tools to facilitate easier and more thorough cleaning?

What are the advantages of using 209 primers? Do they burn hotter, are they more quote-unquote reliable? Impervious to weather ? It looks to me like the number 4 muzzle caps would be easier to remove from the nipple due to "wings" that fit over the edge. I would think that they'd be easier to remove than something that is nearly flush fit/without something to "grab" onto to remove.

Are there down-sides to number 4 muzzle caps?

If 209's truly are the best, can my rifle be converted from what I have?

Help a Newbie out, please.

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[Andy54Hawken]

If by "number 4 muzzle caps"" ...means the "4 wing" Percussion Musket caps..then...
Those are easy to use and find...they are largish in size and easy to use and remove...at least on traditional style percussion muskets and rifled muskets.
They also "burn" hotter..and are supposed to be more reliable than a number 11 cap...
I say supposed to , 'cause I really ain't experienced much of a difference , other than the aforementioned easier to handle when its cold or wet...cause of the size.

Many rifles can be converted to use any size cap with a simple nipple exchange.
I'd contact Joe or Suzi Williams at the GunWorks (Springfield Or. ) or Greg over at Greene's gun shop / The Hawken Shop ( Oak Harbor) and see what they have for ya....
Andy

 

[drstrangelove]

The Vortek does come with a 209 system removable plug, so you should be able to get one. The 209 can be had in the magnum variety, ensuring the hottest ignition possible ignition available, particularly important for pyrodex pellets and the hardest of all to ignite, ML Black. The rifle musket primers with the wings are somewhat dangerous for the user since the wings can shear off and hit you in the eye.

 

[tac]

I've just watched this instructional movie from Traditions, and TBH I can't see how you could convert this rifle to shoot a musket cap.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

According to the Traditions Website...this particular model cannot be converted to use 209 primers....
Andy

 

[tac]

My point, Sir.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I've just watched this instructional movie from Traditions, and TBH I can't see how you could convert this rifle to shoot a musket cap.

My point, Sir.

Muskets caps are different than 209 shotgun primers....As I am sure that you know.
The OP states that his rifle is appears to be set up for musket caps and he wants to set it up for 209 primers...unless I am misreading this as well....
So I am not really understanding what you are saying here...sorry
Andy

 

[tac]

Muskets caps are different than 209 shotgun primers....
So I am not really understanding what you are saying here...sorry
Andy

Andy, I know they are - I shoot both types of cap. My point is that the rifle can NOT be converted the way the OP wants to be able to do. TBH, my experience with in-line BP rifles is small, but they were designed from the get-go to use a #209 primer to ignite the charge.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Andy, I know they are - I shoot both types of cap. My point is that the rifle can NOT be converted the way the OP wants to be able to do. TBH, my experience with in-line BP rifles is small, but they were designed from the get-go to use a #209 primer to ignite the charge.

Again unless I am misreading the OP...

He wants to see if he can exchange the current nipple set for the musket cap for the system that allows the 209 primers...

You said in post #4 ...I can'"t see how to convert this rifle to shoot a musket cap..."
it already uses a musket cap

I just looked at the Traditions website and they state that this model cannot be coveted to use 209 primers

The Northwest magnum was not designed from the get go to use 209 primers.


I can't think of a way to be more clear here...and am sorry now that I tried to answer the question.
Andy

 

[tac]

Ah, the way I read it was that he wanted to convert it TO #209 primers........................guess I got it all muxed ip. Sometime my england is not so good.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Whew...!
Well if it helps....
At times I only open my mouth to exchange my feet....
Andy

 

[drstrangelove]

Traditions® Accelerator™ Breech Plug - 209 Primers - A1443

Traditions® Accelerator™ 209 Breech Plug - Accelerator is made for loose or pelletized powders, Fits all accelerator inline muzzleloaders. Best Prices, Fast Shipping, Expert Advice!

www.muzzle-loaders.com

$17 conversion right here. Specifically says OK for use in Vortek.

 

[tac]

YAY!!!!! Result!

[Collects hat and leaves]

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Again I must point out :
According to the Traditions Firearms web site ...
( You know the folks who made the rifle , not someone selling a aftermaket item )
This specific model of Vortek rifle cannot be converted to use 209 primers...
Andy

 

[waglockfan]

Sorry for all the confusion earlier. I was on the phone with Traditions back in CT, and confirmed with them that the barrel can no be converted to take the Accelerator Plug. Also the rifle I have can not be retrofitted with a barrel that has the Accelerator Plug.

The breech plug that is in there now is removable with a special spanner wrench that goes for about $15. That was my main concern, being removable to facilitate a thorough cleaning. If I have to use a tool than so be it.

The breech face is different and will not take to converting to 209 primers with the nipple that are available. So, 4-petal musket caps it is.

The guy I spoke with recommended the RWS 1081 caps. He and some of his compatriots had been seeing problems with CCI caps in the field and had switched to the RWS with a noted jump in performance and reliability.

He also recommended staying away from 777, and if I were to use pellets, I should use Pyrodex 50gr pellets.

What pellets do the Muzzle Loaders here at NWFA recommend for use with 4-petal caps?

 

[tac]

Please stop calling them whatever it is you call them, they are known all over as musket caps. There must be about two, maybe three in-line muzzleloading rifles here in UK, since they don't fit any of the hunting regulations that we have to abide by, so I'm not ultra-knowledgeable about them, except to say that I wouldn't have one in my gun safe, even as a gift.

However, it's the variety of the stuff available that makes makes the market, so good luck to you with it.

I've been shooting nothing but RWS since the late 70's, and they are definitely the best there are. For a laff I tried Pyrodex pellets a while back at Izaak Walton range Yoojeen. They come, I recall in 50gr 'lumps' and found them next to useless as a result. One was not enough, two was so-so, and three blew your head off. Loose-loading is the way to go, IMO. that way you can tailor the load precisely to your requirement.

 

[Roundball58]

I'm in the loose powder group. Most load work up for big game calibers is done in 5 to 10 grain increments. I can't see finding a good load when you only have 50, 100 and 150 grain options.

 

[waglockfan]

The more I look into it, I'm coming to agree with the loose powder option. Pellets seem to be convenient and all, but to be able to dial in a load would be pretty hard to do. I have also read pellets are harder to ignite over loose powder, dunno if that is true.

What loose powder do the ML guys here recommend?

I have picked up a pack of bullets to try. Mainly because I like Federal products and their performance and success I have had with centerfire rifle, pistol, and rimfire...I went with their Trophy Copper ML 270gr bullets #PMZ50TC1.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I recommend , for real , traditional black powder...for your use either 2F or 3F
In my experience with black powder substitutes , they don't burn any "cleaner" , "hotter" , "faster" or more "reliable" than traditional black powder....they also in my experience seem , far more corrosive than traditional black powder.

While I don't recommend not cleaning BP guns right after shooting , I have due to various reasons , had to clean my guns a day or two later....with BP it is tougher cleaning job with the wait , due to "crusty" fouling...but no corrosion...with BP substitutes...I have seen corrosion start within hours.....

The only advantage that I can see with a BP substitute is the availability of it over true BP.
Andy

 

[tac]

Yup. I started shooting Pyrodex when we lived in Berlin, and real BP was not available because of the Four Power Status Agreement regarding explosives. So ity was Pyrodex or nothing. I've never been a great fan, although is has TWO distinct advantages for those of us who do not live in the USA.

1. It is freely available to those people who have the necessary documentation to own muzzleloaders, whereas in all countries I know of, BP requires an explosives licence to purchase and hold.

2. Because it has less weight per equal volume of BP, but performs more or less the same, you get more bangs for your buck.

Or, look at it this way - 100gr by volume of BP = ~90gr of the equal granulation of Pyrodex, and only 85gr of Triple 7, the other popular sub.

In general, up to .45cal rifles use 3Fg/FFFg, and over that, 2Fg/FFg.

FYI, pellets are not usually used over ANYTHING, and they actually have a small central inclusion of real BP to get them going. This is obviously where the in-line rifle ignition system gets its primary use - the flame of the #209 shotgun primer goes directly into the centre of the pellet and instant ignition is assured.

Putting a pellet or two, or three down a flintlock is a surefire road to 100% frustration, as that poor little BP flash can hardly scorch the surface of the pellet, let alone ignite it.