New to AR's and I need some info!

[The B]

Without having to spend a lot of wasted time and money trying to figure out what to get, just get this and go shoot the **** out of it for a year. After that,you can figure out what extra's you need if any. The Spikes carbine is a "Best Buy" in it's price range. It will shoot a wide range of bullet weights. The M-4 stock will adjust to a variety of shooter sizes,so your friends can have fun at the range and help pay for your ammo. It pretty much has the features you need to start up with and not much you don't need. You can do a lot worse for $800.00. <broken link removed>

if all those specs are true/accurate, it certainly seems like a deal. i cant believe he listed ALL those specs and didn't include a gas port size.

former practices of deception leave me cold on spikes, however. the man has no honor.

 

[mjbskwim]

Ordered a Stag 6H upper today $575
And the shop had a DPMS WITH deflector,dust cover and forward assist for $781
Regular 16" A2 configuration.That ain't too bad

Now the trigger group/lower kit.Excuse me fire control group

 

[The B]

DPMS is always dirt cheap. you can get Vulcan ARs for like $500, complete, or something like that. but why would you spend $500, or $781, on a complete piece of bubblegum?

 

[BAMCIS]

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So I might know something about something. AND I did say I wasn't an AR Guy!
Relax your language BAMCIS...Please.
The problem with ARs [I see] is they send the dirt into the bolt locking area.

Sorry if I offended you or anyone else. That was not my intention.

Threads like these frustrate me. The AR platform is an awesome platform the way it is. Why mess with it's basic design? Stoner hit on the magic solution in the first place. Now different manufacturers are trying to "reinvent" it. They have, as noted in previous posts, found a solution in search of a problem.

Don't get me wrong though. I never said the piston design is not a good system. It has it's places, but just not in the AR platform.

I've been around long enough to know it is impossible to make all people happy. It was not my intention to offend. If I did then please ignore all I have said.

eace:

 

[Blackbird]

Well after a lot of research and consideration, I made my decision today. I ordered a Rock River Arms complete mid length flat top upper (and got a **** of a deal on it), a SAA complete lower but w/o a stock, a Magpul adjustable stock, Magpul rear sight, and some other Magpul items to go along with it. I will add a scope and a quad rail among other things later. This should get me going for the time being. After everything I ordered today I will be in this rifle for less than $700. I figure that if I get everything and dont like the lower, I can sell it and buy the RRA lower and be happy. I will let everyone know how things go when I get it and get it all together. Thanks for all the opinions and suggestions. Much apppreciated!

 

[mjbskwim]

MidwayUSA &#8212; Shooting Supplies, Reloading, Gunsmithing, Hunting, Ammunition, Gun Parts & Rifle Scopes

 

[mjbskwim]

DPMS is always dirt cheap. you can get Vulcan ARs for like $500, complete, or something like that. but why would you spend $500, or $781, on a complete piece of bubblegum?

Hmmm,only one I've heard say DPMS isn't a good brand.
And ya know what? The bushmaster right above it didn't impress me any more than the DPMS.
Are they bubblegum too?
Should we all sell our cars and get a Noveski?

Every one I have talked to and everything I have read tells me most all the manufacturers are pretty close on quality.
Yes there are different "tiers" but in the most part,if you have LIMITED funds and aren't shooting for fortune or fame,about 75% of the AR 15s out there are gunna make you happy.

You are sounding like me when it comes to some pistols.

 

[mjbskwim]

double post

 

[Dutchy556]

Hmmm,only one I've heard say DPMS isn't a good brand.
And ya know what? The bushmaster right above it didn't impress me any more than the DPMS.
Are they bubblegum too?
Should we all sell our cars and get a Noveski?

Every one I have talked to and everything I have read tells me most all the manufacturers are pretty close on quality.
Yes there are different "tiers" but in the most part,if you have LIMITED funds and aren't shooting for fortune or fame,about 75% of the AR 15s out there are gunna make you happy.

You are sounding like me when it comes to some pistols.

If bkb0000 is the first person you're heard speak ill of DPMS you need to read around a bit more. There is a huge difference between well built/spec'd ARs and the vast majority of commercial offerings out there, and the price difference between quality and crap doesn't require the selling of anyone's car - just them doing their homework.

 

[mjbskwim]

Been constantly reading articles on ARs for a couple weeks now
Do I need to go to some elitist forum for this info?

I was at another forum reading about ARs today. Someone asked about Oly Arm

"BOTTOM FEEDERS" DON'T BUY"

And a couple of OlyArms owners laughing at them cause their's run perfectly fine.And accurate to boot.

The main thing I learned in the past two weeks is everyone has a different opinion on which one is best.
And it always works out that the guys with the most expensive ARs (gun,car,truck,anything) have the strongest opinion and most answers why theirs is best.

 

[The Cheese]

maybe you should just look at getting or building a basic, good quality M4 clone (16" barrel, 6position stock, regular plastic handguards) with the fixed front sight and a flat top with a detachable carry handle. Simple, effective, and cheap. It would be a great starting point to learn what works for you and what doesn't, plus you wouldn't be out a ton of money. Then start to hook up with other folks that have AR's with parts and optics on them that you are interested in, try them out then make your buying decisions from there. It can sometimes take a while to figure out what works for you and what doesn't. And with AR's that can get really expensive really quick.

 

[mjbskwim]

Well did some more investigating and can't confirm or deny your statements about DPMS,but have found that their lowers seem to be well made? (Yes,the rest was called junk)

OK back to the trigger group/fire control systems. Every one seems to gravitate towards Timney.
Jewell,Chip's,CMC,JP,Giessele,Wilson ? I'm want a single stage at around 3-4#s? Not worried about cost as much as smooth.I'm trying to put a long range shooter together.

And the thing we forget when we see these questions,and know we will get "opinions",is if all or most of the opinions go to one brand,then that is a better starting place for the "askee"??

Hey thanks for all the input.

And Cheese,I have owned a few ARs over the years and didn't keep them long.Either didn't shoot them enough or needed money for something different.
Now I have the time to play more,so a nice shooter that (can) take cheap ammo is right up my alley. Building it keeps the initial cost down and makes it more fun for me.

Hope the OP is getting as much as I am from this thread.

 

[Dutchy556]

As far as triggers go pretty much all those makers you mention put out quality units. For single stage Timney has a nice drop-in option that I've got some time on and am fairly impressed with. For me though I prefer Geissele hands down, most of the offerings are 2 stage though. The new Super Dynamic 3 gun would meet your desires pretty well I think.

As for a place to so some research, as bkb mentioned already in the thread, go over to M4carbine.net and do some reading. Use the search function to find threads on various brands (ie. DPMS) as well as the triggers you're considering. The knowledge/experience level of the average poster over there is pretty high compared to the other AR centered forums out there - lots of experienced end users (mil, LE, contractors, trainers, competitors, industry, etc).

Regarding your comment concerning opinions - you know what they say about them and a certain body body part that everyone has. On a lot of forums you might get 20 guys who all put a few hundred rounds a year through their busies, DPMSs and are totally thrilled with them going against a minority who may actually run their guns and have a different point of view. The experience level of the posters has more value than the number of people who share a given opinion in my book. Granted, it's hard to tell who's who on the net but there are plenty of guys who are well known in the community as serious face shooters, trainers of serious face shooters, high level competitors, etc over on m4c. Read what they have to say on the subject of ARs, i guarantee you'll get a lot better info than you would listening to gun rag writers or your average forum poster on this or some of the bigger boards. Lightfigther.net would be another good place to get no-holds barred reviews from serious users but those guys eat people alive


ETA: Blackbird, I totally missed your post about picking up a RRA Middy. Not my first choice but it should serve you well as a first rifle and give you an idea of what you do and don't like, etc. Good call on the midlength gas. SAA lower should be fine, unless it's grossly out of spec a lower is a lower for the most part. Not sure who's LPK they use but it'll probably be fine for a first AR. Make sure your castle nut and gas key screws are properly staked and consider upgrading your extractor spring & insert with a milspec 5 coil spring and black insert (available cheap at bravo company) - she should run well for you. Let us know how it all comes together and get out there and shoot that thing.

 

[hackercat13]

BAMCIS I am with you on not trying to re-invent the wheel. I love my Colt Sporter Match HBAR with the 1/7 barrel. It feels and shoots just like my M16A2 from my Infantry days, and I wouldn't change a thing. Just keep them to a general state of cleanliness, and lightly oiled, she won't let you down.

 

[DirectDrive]

Without having to spend a lot of wasted time and money trying to figure out what to get, just get this and go shoot the **** out of it for a year. After that,you can figure out what extra's you need if any. The Spikes carbine is a "Best Buy" in it's price range. It will shoot a wide range of bullet weights. The M-4 stock will adjust to a variety of shooter sizes,so your friends can have fun at the range and help pay for your ammo. It pretty much has the features you need to start up with and not much you don't need. You can do a lot worse for $800.00. <broken link removed>

That is a good buy, and I like this middy even more :
<broken link removed>
These are some of the best deals out there and as a results Spike is running several weeks behind.

As far as brand snobbery goes, I look at it this way.....
In AR components there are lots of choices,......lotsa crap.....loads of middle ground stuff....high end stuff.
In the middle area there is commercial grade stuff and military grade stuff.
Shop smart and get military grade components for about the same price as commercial and end up with a more reliable and more valuable weapon.

On Spikes, they seem to hold to milspec pretty well and have a good overall rep.
They do use some funky roll marks, IMO, but other than that I would rather have a Spikes than some of the other middle brands.

For the trigger side-conversation, supposedly Geissele is launching a new model sometime mid-March that will compete in the RRA two-stage price point. I believe that it is a single stage.

 

[Blackbird]

ETA: Blackbird, I totally missed your post about picking up a RRA Middy. Not my first choice but it should serve you well as a first rifle and give you an idea of what you do and don't like, etc. Good call on the midlength gas. SAA lower should be fine, unless it's grossly out of spec a lower is a lower for the most part. Not sure who's LPK they use but it'll probably be fine for a first AR. Make sure your castle nut and gas key screws are properly staked and consider upgrading your extractor spring & insert with a milspec 5 coil spring and black insert (available cheap at bravo company) - she should run well for you. Let us know how it all comes together and get out there and shoot that thing.

Actually, I forgot to update everyone. I thought that I was going to buy the RRA upper and a SAA lower and build it from there but I have heard so many different opinions about the RRA product that I decided to hold off and do more research. So as of right now I have not bought anything. I am so confused right now I dont know what to do. I dont want to buy a P.O.S but I dont have more than about $900-$1000 to spend MAX. RRA has the Elite Operator 2 for $1000 right now and it seems like that is a really good price for what you are getting but again, I dont know if I should buy one or not. I know that there can be some staking issues with the RRA, but I have also heard that RRA is now taking care of those issues. I figure that worst case scenario, I can have the staking done by a gunsmith as it doesnt cost much to have it done, and fix the other little things as they arise. I know someone that is in law enforcement and has a RRA Elite Tactical and loves it. What does everyone think? Should I buy the RRA or should I hold off and buy something else?

 

[DirectDrive]

Nothin' wrong with RRA .......it is a good example of a commercial grade AR.
For $1000 I think you could do better.

For instance, you could look at the Spikes middy that I posted or go to Bravo Company and check their stuff out.
Military grade and stellar rep for about the same money.
Look at the specs that the various companies dare to post and look at the warranty.
I say "dare to post" because the spec watchdogs will call them out if they try to fake it.

For around thousand you can get a pretty nice weapon.....opens up the field a bit.

I actually have a 16" SS RRA barrel on en route because I found a good deal on a good barrel with a Wylde chamber and 1/8 twist.
I just wouldn't buy a complete RRA because that's too much $ for what it is, IMO.

Take Smith & Wesson....you'd think that they would be at the top of the mid range or better.....they have one model on sale at some dealers for $709....seems like a good deal ?
But a one year warranty! Try again, S&W.....shame, I grew up about 6 miles from them.

 

[Dutchy556]

Save your money and buy a Bravo Company midlength.

Upper $399

BCG $139.95

<broken link removed> $44.95

Handguards $33.20

That's $617.10 for a one of the best uppers out there with the best charging handle you can get and excellent handguards that you can add accessories to later without breaking the bank.

Leaves you $382.90 for a lower without breaking 1K. You should be able to get your hands on a decent lower in the Portland metro area for less than that.

That would be my suggestion.

Read <broken link removed> if you want to know why.

ETA: I realized that leaves you without a rear sight. Pick up an MBUS for $55 and you're still left with 327 bucks for a lower.

 

[DirectDrive]

Here's the price sheet on complete weapons :

http://img46.imageshack.us/i/bravocompany.jpg/

 

[Dutchy556]

Yeah, or ignore what I posted above and just order the same thing as a complete rifle and have it shipped to your FFL. That will run you a little north of your stated 1k max though with shipping, xfer fee and a rear sight.

If you absolutely have to stay closer to 1k this would be a fairly easy way to do it combined with what I linked above:

You can pick up something like a mega lower and daniel defense LPK from Rainier Arms here and here for $206

A stock kit from BCM runs $82.95 here


That's everything you need for right around 1k shipped if you can find someone to help you build up the lower or have the tools yourself. Or just buy a complete lower locally and pop the pins, you should be able to find something complete for $330 or less.

Honestly though I'd save another few weeks or a month or whatever and buy a complete BCM - one of the best ARs out there by far with an excellent warranty and customer service to boot. I've had nothing but good dealings with Paul. Note that even if your budget was doubled I would still make the same suggestion and tell you to spend the rest on training, ammo and mags.