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new guy here got a optics question
- Thread Starter croot08
- Start date
LOTS of choices. Any of several true 1x to 4x or so scopes out there, depending on your budget. From the $200ish Millett DMS, to some that will cost W-A-Y more than the
rifle. Even some 1x-8x offerings, from Leupold, Schmidt & Bender and Premier Reticle.
Another option is a 3x-9x or larger on top, with a red dot or set of irons on a side
angle mount. They even make a set of rings that will mount a small red dot on
top of the regular scope rings, if that might be to your liking.
Define your goals. 500+ with a 5.56 in a stock rifle might be a wishful goal.
Define your budget. Some of the glass I mentioned above is $2500+
Define the features you need/want/just think they sound cool. Illuminated reticle?
Mil-dot? Absolute (if the scope breaks I will probably die) reliability?
rifle. Even some 1x-8x offerings, from Leupold, Schmidt & Bender and Premier Reticle.
Another option is a 3x-9x or larger on top, with a red dot or set of irons on a side
angle mount. They even make a set of rings that will mount a small red dot on
top of the regular scope rings, if that might be to your liking.
Define your goals. 500+ with a 5.56 in a stock rifle might be a wishful goal.
Define your budget. Some of the glass I mentioned above is $2500+
Define the features you need/want/just think they sound cool. Illuminated reticle?
Mil-dot? Absolute (if the scope breaks I will probably die) reliability?
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I found long ago that you don't want to skimp on optics. If you have a $1000 rifle why cheapen it with a $100 sight? The old rule applies, you get what you pay for.
If I were you I would save up and look into whats currently being used in the sandbox. And when you are talking something for long range, yet something for CQT my first thought would be an aimpoint or an EoTech site with a magnifier.
If I were you I would save up and look into whats currently being used in the sandbox. And when you are talking something for long range, yet something for CQT my first thought would be an aimpoint or an EoTech site with a magnifier.
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This is a good route too.
- Thread Starter
- #5
Well first its not reall a stock rifle it has a full floater match stainss barrel and a 2stage trigger, I have thought of the scoe with the red dot but I am color blind and red seems hard to see I have not tried the green yet so idk, I would like illuminated and mil spec would be nice but not necessary well I guess my budget really kind of tops around 1100 or so can't go much more than that. So with that in mind what do y'all think, and I am new to the sight world so what are the setups with the magnfier? That you were talking about CAL?
- Thread Starter
- #6
thanks ritz that helped some good reading right there for sure, how is this for a scope i know acogs are awesome but i have never gotten the chance to use one.
TA11-G ACOG - Trijicon, Inc.
TA11-G ACOG - Trijicon, Inc.
If the Acog is under consideration, also take a look at the Elcan Specter DR. They are slowly starting to become available, and the prices are starting to moderate a bit. <broken link removed>
ACOG might not be a bad choice... I am personally a huge fan of them for most practical applications out to intermediate ranges, though not everybody loves them.
You say you want to be able to engage out to 500. Are you looking for shoot a man in the torso accuracy or for shooting groups at that range?
I run a TA33 on a 16" recce and can pretty consistently ring steel (2/3 ipsc sized plates) out to 600 using the BDC. The groups aren't much to look at given the low power magnification but they're hits. The 3.5x ta11 should provide you the same capability
As far as intermediate and close range capabilities go, I find the ACOGs to be excellent 50 yards and out, while inside of 50 yards they are certainly slower than a red dot or other 1x optic, but not impossible to use. Shooting both eyes open utilizing the "bindon aiming concept" or running a front lens cover to effectively make the acog an occluded eye sight works pretty well. I can usually keep up with most of the shooters running red dots at a competition or training while running the 33, and I find it provides a decent advantage beyond CQB distances.
You might also want to check out the Accupoints from trijicon. Dual illuminated like many acog models, more magnification, should meet your budget.
As BillM mentioned, if you go with a higher magnification optic and want something for close in, an offest red dot or irons would probably work well. Maybe take a look at the Dueck Defense/Surefire offset ironsights.
You say you want to be able to engage out to 500. Are you looking for shoot a man in the torso accuracy or for shooting groups at that range?
I run a TA33 on a 16" recce and can pretty consistently ring steel (2/3 ipsc sized plates) out to 600 using the BDC. The groups aren't much to look at given the low power magnification but they're hits. The 3.5x ta11 should provide you the same capability
As far as intermediate and close range capabilities go, I find the ACOGs to be excellent 50 yards and out, while inside of 50 yards they are certainly slower than a red dot or other 1x optic, but not impossible to use. Shooting both eyes open utilizing the "bindon aiming concept" or running a front lens cover to effectively make the acog an occluded eye sight works pretty well. I can usually keep up with most of the shooters running red dots at a competition or training while running the 33, and I find it provides a decent advantage beyond CQB distances.
You might also want to check out the Accupoints from trijicon. Dual illuminated like many acog models, more magnification, should meet your budget.
As BillM mentioned, if you go with a higher magnification optic and want something for close in, an offest red dot or irons would probably work well. Maybe take a look at the Dueck Defense/Surefire offset ironsights.
- Thread Starter
- #9
those specter are sweet but at 2k its a little more than i can spend right now, but as for the ACOG yea engaged out to around 5 to 6 would be nice torso accuracy or maybe just a little smaller ring steel out to 6 would be sweet grouping that far out really isnt a big deal for me, would the ta11 be a better choice or should i just do the 33?
- Thread Starter
- #10
so are you thinking this one? TA33G-11 ACOG - Trijicon, Inc.
Personally I would go with one of the horseshoe reticles - either the ta33 or ta11 h. The reason being the horseshoe provides a bigger lit reticle to draw the eye quickly for close in but still has the 1moa center dot for precise holds. As for color, a lot of guys are big on the green (theoretically easiest for the human eye to pick up), some prefer red and some like the amber (I found I preferred the amber to the red after trying both during the day and at night).
Really its all personal preference as far as reticles go, mine has an amber chevron as the horseshoes (and green) weren't available when I bought mine. I really like the chevron but would likely go with the green horseshoe if buying one now.
As far as 33 vs 11... You get a little more magnification, a wider field of view and a bit more eye relief with the 11. I've never found the 33's eye relief to be limiting (it is much longer than the advertised specs, I've never had trouble getting a good sight picture even from awkward positions). As for field of view, I've never had a problem with the 30mm objective vs the 35mm but some prefer more FOV. And I don't see that much difference between 3x and 3.5x...
What it comes down to for me is weight & size (the 33 is much lighter, and smaller - the 11 is quite large for what it is) and cost (the 33 is about $200 cheaper and can be found for around 1k new). Also, a minor point, but it's easy to put flip caps on the 33 - with the 11 or 01/31 models you need to add a killflash to then mount a flip cover on. With the front flip closed the sight works like an occluded eye gunsight as I mentioned earlier. This will make up close shooting a bit faster as you aren't fighting the magnification with one eye - though I have heard that for some this can cause point of impact shift given the way their eyes work.
Both are great optics, ideally you would be able to go out, look at both and choose for yourself. Often that's not possible though unless you've got some well stocked gun shops near by or friends with both. For my tastes, I think the 33 is one of the best all around multi purpose optics. I know several shooters who agree with me. Some do prefer the 11 though. Ultimately trying before buying would be your best bet, but I suspect you'd be happy with either of the aforementioned choices. I'd also consider a 1-4 like a TR-24, Short dot or Nightforce NXS but ultimately I think the 33 wins out based on size/weight, durability (short dot is damn near bomb proof too but $$$), price, BDC and general practicality.
I can't make your decision for you, but the TA33H-G would be what I would buy today if I were looking for a multi-purpose optic to engage targets with "combat" accuracy out to 5/600 and still have decent capability at closer ranges.
A note on BDC for the acogs: The holds for different ranges are established based on certain rounds from certain length barrels - off the top of my head I can't recall what the 223 bdc is calibrated for, likely m855 out of 20" or 14.5" bbls. I know that for me the .308 reticle was much closer to what I needed for my application (namely 77gr pills from a 16" noveske - the holds are pretty much dead on).
It may behoove you to do a little research on which BDC will more closely match your intended use - the info is out there on some of the bigger AR-centric forums if you google a bit. Odds are the 223 reticle will work, and you can mess with your zero to have the stadia more closely match up with the drop of what you're shooting.
Really its all personal preference as far as reticles go, mine has an amber chevron as the horseshoes (and green) weren't available when I bought mine. I really like the chevron but would likely go with the green horseshoe if buying one now.
As far as 33 vs 11... You get a little more magnification, a wider field of view and a bit more eye relief with the 11. I've never found the 33's eye relief to be limiting (it is much longer than the advertised specs, I've never had trouble getting a good sight picture even from awkward positions). As for field of view, I've never had a problem with the 30mm objective vs the 35mm but some prefer more FOV. And I don't see that much difference between 3x and 3.5x...
What it comes down to for me is weight & size (the 33 is much lighter, and smaller - the 11 is quite large for what it is) and cost (the 33 is about $200 cheaper and can be found for around 1k new). Also, a minor point, but it's easy to put flip caps on the 33 - with the 11 or 01/31 models you need to add a killflash to then mount a flip cover on. With the front flip closed the sight works like an occluded eye gunsight as I mentioned earlier. This will make up close shooting a bit faster as you aren't fighting the magnification with one eye - though I have heard that for some this can cause point of impact shift given the way their eyes work.
Both are great optics, ideally you would be able to go out, look at both and choose for yourself. Often that's not possible though unless you've got some well stocked gun shops near by or friends with both. For my tastes, I think the 33 is one of the best all around multi purpose optics. I know several shooters who agree with me. Some do prefer the 11 though. Ultimately trying before buying would be your best bet, but I suspect you'd be happy with either of the aforementioned choices. I'd also consider a 1-4 like a TR-24, Short dot or Nightforce NXS but ultimately I think the 33 wins out based on size/weight, durability (short dot is damn near bomb proof too but $$$), price, BDC and general practicality.
I can't make your decision for you, but the TA33H-G would be what I would buy today if I were looking for a multi-purpose optic to engage targets with "combat" accuracy out to 5/600 and still have decent capability at closer ranges.
A note on BDC for the acogs: The holds for different ranges are established based on certain rounds from certain length barrels - off the top of my head I can't recall what the 223 bdc is calibrated for, likely m855 out of 20" or 14.5" bbls. I know that for me the .308 reticle was much closer to what I needed for my application (namely 77gr pills from a 16" noveske - the holds are pretty much dead on).
It may behoove you to do a little research on which BDC will more closely match your intended use - the info is out there on some of the bigger AR-centric forums if you google a bit. Odds are the 223 reticle will work, and you can mess with your zero to have the stadia more closely match up with the drop of what you're shooting.
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I think you'll be happy a 33. If not, you can probably get most if not all of what you paid for it selling it as new - but I doubt you'll want to.
Probably going to be cheaper to buy online but you never know. One of the cheaper places I've seen that I can personally vouch for as being legit is libertyoptics.com - looks like $997 for a 33. I'd call to check stock status though.
Another good vendor I've dealt with before is cstactical.com. Once upon a time you'd get a discount for being an ar15.com member - not sure if that's still the case as I tend to avoid that forum these days. Looks like 1037 through them, if they still have the discount might be a better deal.
A few other places come up as a little cheaper on a google search but most of them I've never heard of and have few reviews - buyer beware. I can vouch for both the above companies as being gtg having dealt with them before, excellent service from both.
Probably going to be cheaper to buy online but you never know. One of the cheaper places I've seen that I can personally vouch for as being legit is libertyoptics.com - looks like $997 for a 33. I'd call to check stock status though.
Another good vendor I've dealt with before is cstactical.com. Once upon a time you'd get a discount for being an ar15.com member - not sure if that's still the case as I tend to avoid that forum these days. Looks like 1037 through them, if they still have the discount might be a better deal.
A few other places come up as a little cheaper on a google search but most of them I've never heard of and have few reviews - buyer beware. I can vouch for both the above companies as being gtg having dealt with them before, excellent service from both.
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LaRue Tactical would be a safe bet for the ACOG also. Good Pricing and good service.
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+1 for ACOG Nothing I've used works as well for both near and far. plus it's very light and compact.
Take a look at the multiple 1X - 4X scopes on the market. Lots of different price points and options. I use the Vortex Viper PST 1-4. Great scope. Excellent glass. Excellent quality. IMHO it is just as good of quality as most of the 1-4 scopes that are priced in the $800-$900 range.
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This is another good option. Gives a little more quickness for close in stuff, but you can dial it up if you need to get out to longer ranges. The vortex is a sweet scope for sure. That said you would be hard pressed to go wrong with the ACOG either. ACOGs are a bit more compact and a little lighter than a 1-4x optic. But its just kind of six one way half a dozen the other. Worst case, if you find you don't like your ACOG you could probably sell it. But the market can be kind of finicky for them it seems. The 1-4x scopes tend to get snatched up a little quicker though. But any way you slice it, it will make your gun a bit more fun to shoot and quicker all around.
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