New Active Shooer Training for LEOS

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On the news tonight they were talking about the NEW training concept of first responder LEOs to an active shooter being told NOW to go right in and engage the shooter, for the express purpose of stopping the carnage, rather then the SOP of waiting for backup.

Columbine was used as an example of the cops watching and listening to the active shooters execute student after student while they waited for SWAT to arrive.

Big news? Latest tactics?

Ponder for 20 years talking to my LEO friends, asking them how the could sit back and watch prison hostages get killed, bank robberies go down, people getting executed because Officer Safety was paramount.

So they interviewed police officers doing this new non-pussy do the right thing training and it was funny...'Yeah, uh, wow, you know it's natural to run from gunfire, but now we have to move toward it, scary'.

Seriously, it makes you ponder who they hire to be cops and worse, who they hire to make the big boy decisions.
 
OP
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I was taught this over 15 years ago.
Its not new.
we used simunitions and the training was very real.
I like how you guys rewrite history, now your all tough guys now that don't call for back up.

Not new at all. Columbine just illustrated how poor some tactics are. At the Clackamas Town Center shooting the first cop on the scene entered the area by the theater, skidded to a stop and ran inside ready to go. That's how it ought to be.
Sure.
 
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Maybe new for Lane county. As stated before. When county responded to the Clackamas Town Center Shooting they immediate entered the building in small teams. In fact in the news conference, they noted this was training specifically to prevent another Columbine. Maybe other counties were waiting to see if in action before investing the time and money into new trainer. I mean we all know how much Lane County likes to spend on their sheriffs district. Didn't they have two layoff last year and have to release a bunch of inmates as they couldn't afford to hold them?
 
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From my somewhat recent LE training, 2 years ago, it was "marching to the sound of fire" we did hundred of hours with Simunition, and at times instructors would "tag" someone dead, and u would have to step over them and keep going, obviously, knowing it was simuniton isnt the same as real gunfire, but none the less. this isnt new, its been around since my brothers started and that was almost a decade ago. i just dont care for people coming in and slamming cops. lol
 

BroncoFan

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I like how you guys rewrite history, now your all tough guys now that don't call for back up.



What's with the attitude?
It's not about being "tough," it is simply what is being taught. Get on scene get a team together, preferably 4 - cover front, flanks and rear - and run and gun to the sound of gunfire. You ignore the wounded and any non-threats and take out the shooter.
 
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The size of the team is what has changed..when I started 14 years ago the team was 5..you get 5 officers together asap and go in..The new direction is a smaller team..we are doing 2 officers now..the whole objective was always to find the shooter and engage him...The tactics with 5 are actually better, but the time it takes to get 5 guys together is the problem..the actual shooting in Clackamas lasted 3 minutes as an example.

I have to back to my other thread now..so I can bash all the people that responded to that one.
 
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Ficklefinger,
Do you have firsthand knowledge that the above didn't occur?
Sure. Everyone knows cops don't make a move unless they know they have a superior advantage, officer safety being paramount and all that. So historically they sat back, waiting for the troops arrive on anything more then a traffic stop with a teenage girl at the wheel. I could tell you about written tests I took asking for this very same concept, where they pushed the team concept vs the lone wolf thing. Cop friends confirmed this, Glock talk, magazines. COPS. You would have to be living under a rock to think that cops ever did anything as first responders unless they had a clear advantage.

I just think it's kinda funny now with real shooters, with real guns, they are forcing these guys to wade into a potential gunfight, to stop the carnage of OTHER PEOPLE VS OFFICER SAFETY FIRST and you see the guys on TV all worried, like 'oh gee, NOW police work is getting real'.

it's not a debate that the tactics are changing and the public won't stand for the police to sit there while a school is getting wiped out, I just wonder who they will hire in the future as potential gunfighters vs radio jockeys that call SWAT any time it gets real.

I'm not trying to slam cops, I just think it's interesting that everyone's head was in the sand for so long.
 
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The size of the team is what has changed..when I started 14 years ago the team was 5..you get 5 officers together asap and go in..The new direction is a smaller team..we are doing 2 officers now..the whole objective was always to find the shooter and engage him...The tactics with 5 are actually better, but the time it takes to get 5 guys together is the problem..the actual shooting in Clackamas lasted 3 minutes as an example.

I have to back to my other thread now..so I can bash all the people that responded to that one.
I've recently been involved in active shooter training with a few agencies that I will not name, we played around with some tactics to see what would work and what didn't, and in some of the smaller towns 2 officers is all you have, but clearing a high school with 2 officers will be tough. It's definitely doable but I'd hate to do it, the training that we did suggested 3 minimum, 4-5 recommended. I won't disclose tactics but the old formations that a lot of the metro agencies use are obsolete now, I'm surprised they're so reluctant to make the switch (my own agency included).
 
OP
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I've recently been involved in active shooter training with a few agencies that I will not name, we played around with some tactics to see what would work and what didn't, and in some of the smaller towns 2 officers is all you have, but clearing a high school with 2 officers will be tough. It's definitely doable but I'd hate to do it, the training that we did suggested 3 minimum, 4-5 recommended. I won't disclose tactics but the old formations that a lot of the metro agencies use are obsolete now, I'm surprised they're so reluctant to make the switch (my own agency included).
2 cents. What I have seen in aviation might apply: hiring practices.

About 20 years ago with the advent of usable GPS units in the cockpits, along with autopilots...everything changed...everyone started hiring kids, whoever for less money, with experienced pilots, hand flying, all going bye, bye...huge reliance on automation. NOW that the FAA is starting to see the problems of people not having basic flying skills...(Air France for instance)...they want to flip back...but the airlines got used to cheap hires....push back.

So when did it EVER make sense to hire police officer that had never shot a gun? That had never ever taken martial arts? That had never ever, ever been tested for shooting, fighting and combat capabilities?

So NOW they want guys that are shooters.....and you look around your department...who's taking martial arts, who's shooting IPSC on the weekends....that's right, practically no one. So you get push back when you ask guys that weren't hired to be shooters to be shooters...just like pilots...hired to push buttons, when asked to hand fly through an emergency, they bubblegum that they should have to do that, and by the way 50% of the pilots say the don't want a gun in the cockpit....that like teachers are about half are saying 'That's not my job, that's not what I was hired to do'.
 
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So when did it EVER make sense to hire police officer that had never shot a gun? That had never ever taken martial arts? That had never ever, ever been tested for shooting, fighting and combat capabilities?
It has always made sense to hire people like this. The abilities you've listed can be trained. Things like honesty, common sense, intelligence, discipline, and multi-tasking are much harder if not impossible to train. It always amazes me the misconception people have of police officers. I would say most are not gun nuts and while they can shoot and may hunt, most only shoot their side arm to qualify, and then it goes back in the holster. I asked a member of a police agency what he though of his new side arm versus his old. He shrugged and said, "the bullets come out the same end and it feels a bit different." And this was a SWAT guy, he's just not a gun guy. Just like not all police officers are not gun guy, not all are ultimate fighters and frankly we are better for it!! The abilities they need like shooting and fighting can be trained, and if the officer passes what the department has set for qualifications, then they are suited to be a police officer. If you have a problem with that, take it up with your local sheriff or police chief.

Furthermore, no agency has changed who they hired, they are simply getting the newest training. Isn't that what we want for officers, to have the newest and up-to-date training? They are not hiring "shooters." They are giving their officer's the best training they can, hoping the abilities they learn will save lives, including their own.
 
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ah, so your that guy
Sure. Everyone knows cops don't make a move unless they know they have a superior advantage, officer safety being paramount and all that. So historically they sat back, waiting for the troops arrive on anything more then a traffic stop with a teenage girl at the wheel. I could tell you about written tests I took asking for this very same concept, where they pushed the team concept vs the lone wolf thing. Cop friends confirmed this, Glock talk, magazines. COPS. You would have to be living under a rock to think that cops ever did anything as first responders unless they had a clear advantage.

I just think it's kinda funny now with real shooters, with real guns, they are forcing these guys to wade into a potential gunfight, to stop the carnage of OTHER PEOPLE VS OFFICER SAFETY FIRST and you see the guys on TV all worried, like 'oh gee, NOW police work is getting real'.

it's not a debate that the tactics are changing and the public won't stand for the police to sit there while a school is getting wiped out, I just wonder who they will hire in the future as potential gunfighters vs radio jockeys that call SWAT any time it gets real.

I'm not trying to slam cops, I just think it's interesting that everyone's head was in the sand for so long.
 
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From my somewhat recent LE training, 2 years ago, it was "marching to the sound of fire" we did hundred of hours with Simunition, and at times instructors would "tag" someone dead, and u would have to step over them and keep going, obviously, knowing it was simuniton isnt the same as real gunfire, but none the less. this isnt new, its been around since my brothers started and that was almost a decade ago. i just dont care for people coming in and slamming cops. lol
It's not real training until you get tagged, put you in a body bag, zip it shut, carry you out then put you in meat wagon before letting you out of the bag.

That has a way of getting your attention.
 

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