Need Input on Soft Shooting Pistol Caliber Carbine For Home Defense

[BZawlocki]

Thank you all for your input. What I failed to mention is that I have about 1,000 rounds of commercial 45acp ammo plus another 1,000 rounds of my reloaded 45acp. So naturally being cheap I was thinking that might be a good round for the new PCC.



I am intrigued by the CMMG Banshee in 5.7x28. Thank you to The Heretic for mentioning it.

Just looking around quickly it seems to be a very low recoil round. But it also seems to not be popular.

Would that be a problem in buying ammo?

The Heretic mentioned that reloading might not be the best for semi-auto? Did I read that right? Is that opinion just for the 5.7x28 round?

I enjoy reloading - it's kinda nice therapy for me LOL

The search continues - please continue to throw in your thoughts and suggestions all are appreciated.

I guess the reason I keep coming back to the Banshee is that it looks like a ton of fun to shoot.

Thoughts about this:

Banshee 300 Rifle, Mk4, 5.7 x 28mm, NFA | CMMG - AR 15 and AR 10 Builds and Parts

If you want the best an AR has to offer, then the 300 Series is your choice. This AR is fitted with every desired

cmmginc.com

 

[BZawlocki]

Some people don't know what they need

....

Truthfully you hit the nail right on the head - I have ideas but little real knowledge of PCC.

I'll share with you why I started this search. Several months ago, I put up a large Trump banner in my front yard. It was tied up between 2 trees about 15' off the ground. While I was putting it up a neighbor yelled at me something I really didn't clearly hear but it was something like "you're not gonna put that @#$$$% up in my neighborhood."

Well two days later, my Trump banner was cut down. They cut it down on the 4th of July! Can you believe that!

In talking with friends about putting up another banner, several suggested not doing that. They said and it made sense to me that if the bad guys are willing to get a ladder and cut down your banner it would not be a giant leap for them to come down your driveway and try to hurt me and/or my wife. Or even destroy my property.

Honestly it scared me.

Bill

 

[American123]

Truthfully you hit the nail right on the head - I have ideas but little real knowledge of PCC.

I'll share with you why I started this search. About a month ago, I put up a large Trump banner in my front yard. It was tied up between 2 trees about 15' off the ground. While I was putting it up a neighbor yelled at me something I really didn't clearly hear but it was something like "you're not gonna put that @#$$$% up in my neighborhood."

Well two days later, my Trump banner was cut down. In talking with friends about putting up another banner, several suggested not doing that. They said and it made sense to me that if they are willing to get a ladder and cut down your banner it would not be a giant leap for them to come down your driveway and try to hurt me and/or my wife. Or even destroy my property.

Honestly it scared me.

Bill

It's sad that people like that think they can use intimidation and violence to suppress others thoughts I'd say welcome it and put them in the dirt if necessary.


In terms of your predicament with wanting a soft shooting pistol caliber carbine based on the amount of 45 ammo you already have it sounds like that might be a natural way to go and they do make 45 carbines but from what I understand they are typically blow back operation by design.

I think recoil can be very overstated however because it's amazing with a nice rubber recoil pad attached to a stock can do to dampen recoil and then also generally if a long arm is of any decent weight that mass will naturally absorb the recoil also.

With my earlier suggestion being a 223 caliber AR that was because that's a proven working system that is relatively light and relatively anemic with recoil.

Most all of this will revolve around training because you can generally teach anyone to be successful working with any firearm there are a few instances where for example on a pistol the slide physically takes more effort than a person is capable of performing but we're not talking about a pistol.

They make a banshee in 45 here's a random video on YouTube about it

The problem with any pistol caliber carbine though is if it has a barrel less than 16 it will require either becoming an SPR or using a pistol brace and if you go to the pistol brace route automatically it becomes less enjoyable to shoot if recoil is already a factor for you because it does not have the nice stock surface area or cushion.

I don't know your personal financial situation I don't know what you already own but if it were me and I were in this scenario with the limitations you have described I think I would set up a lightweight AR 15 chambered in 223 and I would put an extended charging handle on it leave it loaded with the safety on and call it a day.

My wife and I are much younger but I taught her how to use the AR and realistically you'll probably never get them that involved apart from basic understanding in a little practice so once they know how to flick the safety off and put rounds on target I would call that a win until they are ready for more.

Edit my wife asked me not to put a trump sign in our yard because she doesn't want her car vandalized, she's got a point, but that's also why the silent majority exists because there are a lot of people who will vote but don't make a big deal about it because they know that the people they live around are too stupid to be able to handle civil society.

 

[Alexx1401]

I'm a 72 year old guy with not much upper body strength. My only real physical disability is that I have no vision in my right eye. My wife is 70 and we are both short people (5' and 5'7"). I have a Sig P220 Elite in stainless. I love this pistol but it's not good for my wife. Racking the slide is not something she can do. I love the P220 short reset trigger and the weight helps with recoil.

I want to find a pistol caliber carbine that both I and my wife can shoot.

For me if the gun is not fun to shoot, it's not gonna get any time at the practice range. And the gun needs to be pretty simple for my wife cause she is just not gonna practice a lot. She will go to the range but not often.

So here is my thinking. I'm looking at the Banshee 300 in 5" barrel. My question is what caliber? Would 9mm give me less kickback than 45acp?

Thanks for any input.

Bill in Gig Harbor, WA

The Banshee will work in either caliber. They have very little recoil and the charging handle will be quite easy for you. If you want to have fun the 9mm will be a lot cheaper to play with and belive me, these things (PCC's) tend to me a ton of damn fun. They are extremely easy to learn to shoot accurately too which is of course important if you bet on it. Buy one, either one, you should be very happy. Only downside will be finding one right now. Most likely will have to order one to your favorite dealer.
Below is one of my PCC's in 9mm. This is with an SB4 brace and it is a ton of fun to shoot. The SB4 brace makes these just too much fun and there is no real recoil.

 

[Camelfilter]

Just looking around quickly it seems to be a very low recoil round. But it also seems to not be popular.

Would that be a problem...

It's pretty expensive at the moment, as is all ammunition.

...The Heretic mentioned that reloading might not be the best for semi-auto? Did I read that right? Is that opinion just for 5.7

Just 5.7, from what I've read it's truly pretty complicated.

Even for the heavily experienced reloader. THEN can give spurious results. The primary problematic factor none can seem to overcome with safe & consistent outcomes is the "special" coating on that particular brass.

Personally I categorize reloading this caliber along the lines of attempting to repurpose used primers to use again. Below reloading berdan primed brass even.

 

[The Heretic]

Thank you all for your input. What I failed to mention is that I have about 1,000 rounds of commercial 45acp ammo plus another 1,000 rounds of my reloaded 45acp. So naturally being cheap I was thinking that might be a good round for the new PCC.



I am intrigued by the CMMG Banshee in 5.7x28. Thank you to The Heretic for mentioning it.

Just looking around quickly it seems to be a very low recoil round. But it also seems to not be popular.

Would that be a problem in buying ammo?

Yes - at this point in time, and in the past. 5.7x28 is $1 per round if you can find it. Speer is coming out with a new loading that has promise - a 40 gr JHP - but it has been almost 9 months since they announced it, and it is rumored to be just now available for almost $2 per round.

From time to time I have picked up ammo when it was relatively affordable - about 35-40¢ per round. Over time I also picked up considerable 5.7 ammo when buying a PS90 or Five Seven as the seller naturally did not want to be stuck with the ammo so I got some good deals on bulk amounts. I just picked up another 3K of 5.7 ammo recently. I keep an eye open for ammo deals here and elsewhere and jump on them when possible (having a bit of cash helps).

At this point in time I am satisfied with the amount I have and feel good considering the cost and scarcity.

The Heretic mentioned that reloading might not be the best for semi-auto? Did I read that right? Is that opinion just for the 5.7x28 round?

Just for the 5.7x28

That the 5.7x28 is problematic for reloading for semi-autos, seems to be the consensus among those who have tried. Observing reviews on Youtube of third party ammo manufacturers (e.g., Elite Ammunition) who are relatively knowledgeable about loading 5.7, even they seem to have problems getting ammo that is consistent, both in pressure/velocity and reliability compared to factory ammo.

There are several sub-forums in the FN forum (FN Herstal Firearms) with people who are a lot more knowledgable about 5.7 ammo and guns than I am, and that is the impression I got from their postings.

 

[spookshack]

Look into the Banshee - its operating system shows promise of less recoil than other PCCs.

I can't speak from experience, but I have read and seen seems to indicate it recoils less.

The RDB system used by CMMG is indeed, softer shooting than a standard AR9. How much, hard to say. I personally can tell a difference between the two.

 

[spookshack]

Since you reload, maybe an AR pistol in .300 Blackout? Ballistically, velocity does not suffer all that much going from say, a 16" barrel, down to a 7.5" or 8" barrel. They work very well suppressed too. Even the heavy subsonic rounds hit like a .45 and are very soft shooting.

While the the SB Tactical pistol brace is not the greatest feeling compared to an actual stock, there will always be compromise when trying to find a firearm that checks "all the boxes".

If you were closer, I'd offer up my AR for you to try out.

Good luck with your search.

 

[Lextruck]

MP5 in 9mm soft as it gets recoil wise. Not so soft on the wallet though

 

[The Heretic]

Since you reload, maybe an AR pistol in .300 Blackout? Ballistically, velocity does not suffer all that much going from say, a 16" barrel, down to a 7.5" or 8" barrel. They work very well suppressed too. Even the heavy subsonic rounds hit like a .45 and are very soft shooting.

While the the SB Tactical pistol brace is not the greatest feeling compared to an actual stock, there will always be compromise when trying to find a firearm that checks "all the boxes".

I can't speak about recoil for the .300 BLK, but it is made for shorter barrels whereas 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 don't do well with shorter barrels - min being about 12-14" at least, preferably 16". Also, it has much better ballistics than almost any pistol cartridge, making it quite a bit more effective - better sectional density too, and more versatile.

Secondary to the .300, but more common and inexpensive, is 7.62x39, although maybe more difficult to get it to run reliably in an AR platform. In an AK it is not a mild recoiler IME - not objectionable, but noticeable.

As for pistol braces, I have a Shockwave with a brace and while it isn't optimum, it is manageable. For an AR pistol you get the benefit of being able to carry it loaded and "concealed" while in a vehicle or on your person if you have a concealed carry permit - at least in Orygun and I believe WA state too?

 

[oregunbob541]

+1 for the CMMG Banshee...in any caliber they're awesome, lightweight, soft shooting and accurate. throw a law tactical folder on there and a red dot + flashlight and you have a great HD or truck gun.

 

[aksu747]

All of them will have virtually no recoil

* most of them have no recoil, I can tell the Kel-Tec Sub2000 definitely does, felt recoil comparable to an sks in 7.62x39.
Ever other PCC I've shot is much lower recoil. Best of the bunch in an MP5 or MP5 Clone, my mother loves my PTR MP5, in contrast she didn't really care for the Sub2000, but she shot it well. The PTR though she is a marksman with.

 

[American123]

* most of them have no recoil, I can tell the Kel-Tec Sub2000 definitely does, felt recoil comparable to an sks in 7.62x39.
Ever other PCC I've shot is much lower recoil. Best of the bunch in an MP5 or MP5 Clone, my mother loves my PTR MP5, in contrast she didn't really care for the Sub2000, but she shot it well. The PTR though she is a marksman with.

The sub 2000 has the niche of being able to fold in half and stowed, it's definitely not designed from the ground up to be the most pleasant PCC. I definitely wouldn't pick it if I was looking for one with the qualities desired and described by the OP.

 

[ARFrog]

No issues with what has been recommended and I like the availability and price point of 9mm. However, just for grins and to be different, how about:

- Marlin Camp 45 - will use your .45 acp and 1911A1 mags if you have them
- M1 carbine with Hornady Critical Defense 30 Carbine ammo

 

[American123]

PSA AR-V 4" 9mm 1/10 Lightweight M-Lok MOE EPT SBA3 Pistol

Barrel Length: 4"Gas System: BlowbackBarrel Profile: HeavyBarrel Steel: 4150V Chrome Moly SteelBarrel Finish: NitrideChrome Lining: NoneMuzzleThread: 1/2-28Chamber: 9mm (9x19)Twist Rate: 1 in 10"Barrel Extension: BlowbackDiameter at Gas Block: N/AGas Block Type: N/AMuzzle Device: PSA 9mm Fluted...

palmettostatearmory.com

This is cool - the price is not. I'm comparing apples to oranges, but a AR10 could have been had for about $600 not that long ago. It's pretty gross to consider paying $1000 for a fancy 9mm AR when a "battle rifle" was $600 not that long ago.

The 35 round scorpion mags are really great. They use the same ones in the AK-V which is the 9mm AK variant they have come out with which is a "blast" and due to popularity has almost hit the $1000 price tag also.

The big drawback (for me) is not having a last round bolt hold open on PCC - some have fixed this and been able to add it. It seems they have addressed that in the above AR varient, I know they addressed it in the AK-V varient.

 

[The Heretic]

No issues with what has been recommended and I like the availability and price point of 9mm. However, just for grins and to be different, how about:

- Marlin Camp 45 - will use your .45 acp and 1911A1 mags if you have them
- M1 carbine with Hornady Critical Defense 30 Carbine ammo

Used to have an M1 carbine in the family. I was somewhat dissatisfied with it as it seemed to me to have more recoil than an AR in 5.56

 

[Chuck Marty]

Hi, no expert on topic but in same age group. In addition to ease I would factor in availability of ammunition.
Recently was considering switching to a 9MM in place of my 40 S&W. The newer 9MM ammunition much better than
years back and often significantly better price. In my case I chose to stay with the 40 S&W, I can hear the complaints already.
Reason being first I carried the 40 for years and never found the recoil significant, second the higher quality 9MM also comes with a higher
price but for me the most significant factor was the availability. I can go into most stores and still buy the 40 , no limit on amount, where as shops I frequent all have a limit on 9. Anyway just one man's opinion. (by the way keep working out, small gains give big results at our age)

 

[The Heretic]

Hi, no expert on topic but in same age group. In addition to ease I would factor in availability of ammunition.
Recently was considering switching to a 9MM in place of my 40 S&W. The newer 9MM ammunition much better than
years back and often significantly better price. In my case I chose to stay with the 40 S&W, I can hear the complaints already.
Reason being first I carried the 40 for years and never found the recoil significant, second the higher quality 9MM also comes with a higher
price but for me the most significant factor was the availability. I can go into most stores and still buy the 40 , no limit on amount, where as shops I frequent all have a limit on 9. Anyway just one man's opinion. (by the way keep working out, small gains give big results at our age)

I went both - 9mm first, then 40 - with some guns, Glocks, SIGs, etc., you can often have a setup to shoot either cartridge - especially if you buy the gun in .40 first

If all ammo disappears off the shelf (and/or there are gov restrictions on ammo) then it will be 9mm that will be the most available.

My philosophy is to have common calibers (9mm, .40, .45, etc.) and to hope for availability, but to plan on having enough stored that I don't need to find ammo from outside my stash.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Truthfully you hit the nail right on the head - I have ideas but little real knowledge of PCC.

I'll share with you why I started this search. Several months ago, I put up a large Trump banner in my front yard. It was tied up between 2 trees about 15' off the ground. While I was putting it up a neighbor yelled at me something I really didn't clearly hear but it was something like "you're not gonna put that @#$$$% up in my neighborhood."

Well two days later, my Trump banner was cut down. They cut it down on the 4th of July! Can you believe that!

In talking with friends about putting up another banner, several suggested not doing that. They said and it made sense to me that if the bad guys are willing to get a ladder and cut down your banner it would not be a giant leap for them to come down your driveway and try to hurt me and/or my wife. Or even destroy my property.

Honestly it scared me.

Bill

A pole trimmer or a blade on a pole can cut stuff down too.
Didn't read the whole thread but saw you do have some .45 ammo, I'd still recommend a 5.56 carbine. They have zero recoil and are effective.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

sig canebrake or sig rattler