Need Input on Soft Shooting Pistol Caliber Carbine For Home Defense

[ARFrog]

Used to have an M1 carbine in the family. I was somewhat dissatisfied with it as it seemed to me to have more recoil than an AR in 5.56

Perhaps you were doing it wrong OP

 

[ARFrog]

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Glock mags, last round bolt hold open and great quality. I have one of their rifles in 9mm and it is a great shooter.


It appears they also have have 45 acp AR style lowers if the OP wants to go that route.

 

[SUPER X]

for compact and cool factor plus build quality its CZ all the way.
If they are available and not back ordered .

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I would ask @wired cuz he has shot a lot of different ones. Several such as Stribog and mp5 clones can be soft shooting. I would suggest also thinkImg about how easy it is to charge the handle (like Alex1401 said above). It may be easy for you but may be tougher for your wife. I have heard on several reviews that "the Stribog is my wife's favorite gun" so I would tend to think it's easy enough (and it seems easy to charge for me) but it would be best to have ur wife try it if possible. My 2 cents anyway.

 

[wired]

I like Stribogs. I have two. The A1's are spot on accurate and very reliable with the ammo they were intended to use which is 124 grain NATO spec ball ammo. Americans have been brainwashed by ammo manufacturers and gun rag hacks to think ball ammo is no good for self defense which is a total load of hooey . Millions of people have been killed with 9mm 124 grain ball. Anyhoo I digress. If you MUST have hollow points the Stribogs won't be to your liking. Also the A1 is somewhat difficult to charge as it does have a heavy recoil spring. Might not be the best choice for a older person . The A3 Stribog has a very soft spring and is very easy to charge but again 124 NATO works 100% of the time. Other ammo maybe not so much although I have yet to fire any ball ammo through either that hasnt run 100% in mine. Truncated or HP ammo isnt going to feed well in either Stribog.

HK's or quality clones from PTR or some of the Turkish makers like Zenith are also very soft shooters . I really like the MP5k clone from PTR . Dont tell my other guns but shes my favorite .Mags are expensive. Like really expensive with used mags in the $75 range and new mags in the $75 range.

I wouldnt reject any of the quality AR9's out there either . Mostly the same manual of arms as an AR-15 so if you are accustomed to them from civilian use or military service you have the muscle memory built in.

Some PCC's like the Scorpion I'm not 100% hip on just because of the weird to me safety and plastiky feel but I know a lot of folks like them.

SIG? The MCX. Neat guns but man, SIG changes models and discontinues stuff like crazy and its a hard company to love.

 

[Helocat]

sig canebrake or sig rattler

Have both, love both. Great guns but in .300blk so not the PCC the OP is asking for. But with you 100% on both of these w/ a can for soft shooting.


@BZawlocki
To take advantage of the .45ACP you already have I would focus on that caliber. The two soft shooting .45ACP PCC I have experience with, and own are the:

B&T APC45 PRO



LWRC SMG 45



Both are very soft to shoot, but the LWRC SMG45 is by far the softest. I would encourage buying a suppressor in .45 as this will not only aid in sound and concussion but also recoil too. Shooting either of these guns suppressed is crazy soft shooting and ZERO concussion. The drawback of both is they are not low-cost options. B&T is about $2450 and the LWRC is about $3k. I don't have experience with CMMG but their Banshee 300 in .45ACP looks like a solid offer for $1600 and takes the lower cost Glock mags. As with any gun right now lead times to get what you want may be longer than you expect. In stock might drive a decision.

I would still get a suppressor for it to really make it easy to use. It takes about a year for a suppressor to clear so you can own it so the sooner you put in for one the sooner you get it. By eliminating the concussion of shooting also makes it easier to use for those with heart conditions, hearing aids and other medical issues that develop as we all season with age. .

 

[Alexx1401]

* most of them have no recoil, I can tell the Kel-Tec Sub2000 definitely does, felt recoil comparable to an sks in 7.62x39.
Ever other PCC I've shot is much lower recoil. Best of the bunch in an MP5 or MP5 Clone, my mother loves my PTR MP5, in contrast she didn't really care for the Sub2000, but she shot it well. The PTR though she is a marksman with.

Not long after the S2K's got my attention I bought 2. First was in .40 and it was amazing how much recoil the damn thing had. It was so much fun I would easily run a couple hundred or more rounds through it at a time. The next day my shoulder felt like I had been hit hard there. Wife fired it one time and that was it for her. I had at one time played with adapting a recoil pad to it. I then bought one in 9mm thinking it would be better for Wife. Even that boots hell out of you. She could shoot it but did NOT like it. Sold the .40, kept the 9 as it is amazing how short and light it is. It does not even come in the same league as any of the many other PCC's I have but, none of the others come close in size and weight. The others are MUCH softer shooting and so of course are far more fun for those who do not like recoil. When this latest panic is finally over I REALLY want to get one of the CMMG's in 10mm
Have a case of 10mm ammo that at this point is probably worth more than a NIB Sub2K

 

[wired]

The 45 CMMG setups are quite nice.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Thank you all for your input. What I failed to mention is that I have about 1,000 rounds of commercial 45acp ammo plus another 1,000 rounds of my reloaded 45acp. So naturally being cheap I was thinking that might be a good round for the new PCC.



I am intrigued by the CMMG Banshee in 5.7x28. Thank you to The Heretic for mentioning it.

Just looking around quickly it seems to be a very low recoil round. But it also seems to not be popular.

Would that be a problem in buying ammo?

The Heretic mentioned that reloading might not be the best for semi-auto? Did I read that right? Is that opinion just for the 5.7x28 round?

I enjoy reloading - it's kinda nice therapy for me LOL

The search continues - please continue to throw in your thoughts and suggestions all are appreciated.

I guess the reason I keep coming back to the Banshee is that it looks like a ton of fun to shoot.

Thoughts about this:

Banshee 300 Rifle, Mk4, 5.7 x 28mm, NFA | CMMG - AR 15 and AR 10 Builds and Parts

If you want the best an AR has to offer, then the 300 Series is your choice. This AR is fitted with every desired

cmmginc.com

5.7x28 is generally considered a very difficult round to reload. It is currently extremely expensive compared to where it was a few months ago, however, I have gotten a few hundred rounds of the FN stuff with the plastic blue tip at Sportsmans relatively recently for $.33 a round. I currently will be adding no more to my stash till prices go down, but I have a few rounds of it.

 

[oldcorpgunny]

Truthfully you hit the nail right on the head - I have ideas but little real knowledge of PCC.

I'll share with you why I started this search. Several months ago, I put up a large Trump banner in my front yard. It was tied up between 2 trees about 15' off the ground. While I was putting it up a neighbor yelled at me something I really didn't clearly hear but it was something like "you're not gonna put that @#$$$% up in my neighborhood."

Well two days later, my Trump banner was cut down. They cut it down on the 4th of July! Can you believe that!

In talking with friends about putting up another banner, several suggested not doing that. They said and it made sense to me that if the bad guys are willing to get a ladder and cut down your banner it would not be a giant leap for them to come down your driveway and try to hurt me and/or my wife. Or even destroy my property.

Honestly it scared me.

Bill

You must live in Pierce or Thurston county. Everyone there is a state employee and a sycophant or Jay "the drooler" Inslee.

 

[oldcorpgunny]

I'd like to suggest the .22 Magnum HMR. My PMR 30 holds 30 rounds and there's virtually no recoil and it's very light weight.

 

[GWS]

I have a Banshee in 5.7x28 and I would highly recommend it for the OP EXCEPT... The ammo right now is very hard to find and very expensive when you do. Interestingly, BiMart has been the most reliable source and the best price at $25/50 But most reliable here doesn't by any means mean consistent. Another consideration is How much money does the OP want to spend? The CMMG upper is $800 and magazines run $35 apiece add an AR lower receiver with a pistol brace and you've just passed $1100 dollars--And you still haven't bought any ammo.
5.56/.223 pistol are incredibly loud and a silencer doesn't do a lot to attenuate that, but those uppers are the most readily available.
.300 Blackout is a the bomb for AR pistols and with a suppressor and subsonic ammo they are super quiet with negligible recoil , A real winner IMHO. I love mine.
I'm waiting on a 10MM CMMG pistol right now but if I had to choose, I'd grab the 5.7 in a heartbeat, but I then, have ammo and OP does not so
So, OP Have you considered a Ruger PC9? 9MM pops up in stores, The Ruger is lightweight and comes with an adapter that allows you to use Glock magazines which are available everywhere. Again, ammo is your biggest issue, I'd be a regular at BiMart on "Ammo Day" (When they restock) and start picking up 9mm and/or 5.7 Bring your spouse so you can each buy whatever allotted number of boxes they're selling per customer per day.
Also as you have a lot of 45ACP on hand consider a 45ACP revolver. Moon clips are a complete pain in the bubblegum to load and unload but a Mooner/Demooner tool makes that onerous task easier and once those moon clips are loaded these revolvers are crazy fast to unload/reload. You Tube has videos of master-gunner Jerry Miculek doing hi speed shooting and reloading. Downside to the revolvers is they are heavy but they do work.
Here's MY 2 cents
If money is no object, get the CMMG setup in 5,7 and start scrounging for ammo Waits can be several weeks for the uppers but you can buy and build up a lower receiver while you're waiting for that upper to arrive. You can even mill out an 80% lower if you are so minded. Maybe buy a 5.56 pistol upper while you're waiting
If weight, cost and recoil are a concern then seriously consider the Ruger PC9. They are are a real winner in all three of those concerns. You may have to shorten the stock for you and your wife but that is doable and that Ruger's cost will still come in cheaper than the other options.
A final consideration...
Try tracking down a Marlin Camp 45 too They're discontinued by Marlin but occasionally pop up on GunBroker and other sites.

Good luck OP!

 

[BZawlocki]

I just cannot thank you all enough for all for your input and suggestions. Here is where I am:

1. Price: When I first started this search I thought maybe spending $1,000 but after reading and watching the delayed blow back guns, it seems that is a good fit for us - which seems to lead to spending more than $1,000.

I seem to have a mental block going over the $1,600 price area LOL.

2. Caliber: I really like the idea of the 5.7x28 it seems like it was designed to be a fairly light recoil round. I'm not excited about the inability to reload it. The price per round is scary but to be honest, I'm most likely not gonna shoot 1,000s of rounds at the range.

I like the idea that 9mm is available and not considered to have heavy recoil.

And I really like the 45acp (I guess just old school LOL) - it would be nice just to use the 45acp ammo that I have.

3. So right now I'm leaning towards the CMMG Banshee.

So I do have more questions though.

I confused about the difference between the 2 Banshee models. One has a forward grip (I assume this is considered rifle?) and is labeled NFA. What does the NFA label mean?

We travel with our 5th wheel trailer as much as we can. Try to winter in Texas each year. I was thinking we would take this new gun as our "truck gun". Does that change which model I can legally carry?

RIFLE, BANSHEE, MkG, 45 ACP, 5", NFA | CMMG - AR 15 and AR 10 Builds and Parts

Chambered in what is arguably the most patriotic pistol caliber available, this .45 ACP BANSHEE™ SBR is one of the

cmmginc.com

Banshee 300 Pistol, MkG, 45 ACP | CMMG - AR 15 and AR 10 Builds and Parts

If you want the best an AR has to offer, then the 300 Series is your choice. This AR is fitted with every desired

cmmginc.com

Bill

 

[spookshack]

The NFA model is a SBR (short barrel rifle). That requires a tax stamp from the Fed's.

The nice thing about SBR's, is you can add a vertical forgrip and use an actual rifle stock.

I'd go with the pistol version. Less to worry about when crossing state lines.

Also, there is a tread here on the forum about a Banshee in 45 that a member was having an issue with. Premature wear I think? Anyway, might want to check it out and see if that's a dealbreaker or not for you. $1600 is quite a bit of money to spend....

 

[The Heretic]

An AR pistol (which has a barrel shorter than 16") becomes an SBR when you put a vertical forward grip (VFG) on it - hence the SBR.

Besides the tax/BGC/etc. for NFA, an issue with the SBR when you move it across state lines is that you need to fill out a form and notify the ATF that you are moving the item to a different location. This is one reason why I won't SBR my PS90 and I keep looking for an integral suppressor solution.

There are forward "stops" for AR pistols that are not viewed as a VFG by the ATF.

CMMG does make several rifles with the radial delayed blowback upper and a 16" or longer barrel, e.g.: Rifle, Resolute™ 200, Mk4, 5.7 x 28mm | CMMG Inc.

Some are not called a Banshee - they are called a "Resolute".

You can also get the uppers alone to put on your own lowers.

I recommend that if you feel that you want an AR pistol, that you start with the pistols, and then later if you want it to be a non-NFA rifle, you can purchase a rifle upper with a 16"+ barrel as you wish, and put a rifle stock on it. The ATF and the courts say that you can convert a pistol to a rifle with a 16"+ barrel and then convert it back to a pistol again (remove the rifle stock) without going NFA, but you cannot convert a firearm sold to you as a rifle to a pistol without it being NFA. Stupid, but there it is.

 

[Alexx1401]

Ditto get the pistol version. SBR's are fun but, you would have to jump the hoops and pay the tax stamp to get that one. The pistol versions of these things with an SB4 brace are VERY nice to shoot. The SB4 brace is pricey but they are very well made.

 

[The Heretic]

CMMG seems to offer a lot of options, from a barrel and BCG to create your own upper, to uppers & lowers, to pistols and rifles, including SBRs.

 

[The Heretic]

Ditto get the pistol version. SBR's are fun but, you would have to jump the hoops and pay the tax stamp to get that one. The pistol versions of these things with an SB4 brace are VERY nice to shoot. The SB4 brace is pricey but they are very well made.

Yup. I have SB several braces for Shockwaves and they work well.

A person just needs to be aware of state laws when visiting or staying overnight in a non-free state - the laws are always changing - e.g., Shockwaves with barrels less than 18" are considered an SBS in California. The FOP does not protect you when traveling thru a non-free state if you stop to visit or stay overnight - you must be passing thru, and even then some states like to go ahead and arrest you or at least confiscate your firearms anyway.

I am retired now and I want to travel, so this is an issue with me; I have a brother and his family in LA, so if I want to visit them while traveling, I can't take certain firearms with me, whether they are locked up or not.

 

[Alexx1401]

Yup. I have SB several braces for Shockwaves and they work well.

A person just needs to be aware of state laws when visiting or staying overnight in a non-free state - the laws are always changing - e.g., Shockwaves with barrels less than 18" are considered an SBS. The FOP does not protect you when traveling thru a non-free state if you stop to visit or stay overnight - you must be passing thru, and even then some states like to go ahead and arrest you or at least confiscate your firearms anyway.

I am retired now and I want to travel, so this is an issue with me; I have a brother and his family in LA, so if I want to visit them while traveling, I can't take certain firearms with me, whether they are locked up or not.

I did not know some were going after the Shockwaves yet but it sure does not surprise me. When that one Co first found the "hole" in the law that allowed this and got them through and then a couple of the big boys started making them I figured this would be sure to get the attention of the law makers.

 

[The Heretic]

I did not know some were going after the Shockwaves yet but it sure does not surprise me. When that one Co first found the "hole" in the law that allowed this and got them through and then a couple of the big boys started making them I figured this would be sure to get the attention of the law makers.

Initially Shockwave type firearms were not legal in Texas or Ohio, maybe other states. They are now legal in Texas and Ohio because they changed their state laws. They are not legal in California, as are a number of other firearms. Before traveling thru or to a given state with firearms, it pays to know their laws regarding firearms and what the FOP protects and does not protect when traveling.