Naval Special Warfare adopts the Glock 19

[Boats]

Yeah and that is the Glock's doing.
You are high if you thing the same thing wasn't happening 1911s, but that is what happens when people are not well trained with their tools and most cops are not well trained. Something tells me SOCOM units won't have that issue.

I never said it was Glock's doing, only that some of its fans have way too much faith in the gun handling abilities of the LCD, trained or not.

The "point" I was responding to was a contention that the larger armed forces would be okay with Glocks as issue. That position is laughable in light of police misadventures with such sidearms.

I agree with you that the various SF units should use whatever floats their boat. But give a chambered Glock, M&P, or other passive safety handgun to a goober who barely scored above breathing on the ASVAB? Lol.

 

[oli700]

But give a chambered Glock, M&P, or other passive safety handgun to a goober who barely scored above breathing on the ASVAB? Lol.

what does an academic test have to do with keeping your finger off the trigger till ready to fire ?......I know folks who could ace that little test and still don't have any business palming any handgun

 

[Boats]

what does an academic test have to do with keeping your finger off the trigger till ready to fire ?......I know folks who could ace that little test and still don't have any business palming any handgun

It has to do with things like bell curve distribution. Regarding any pursuit of learning, the vast majority of your "training headaches" are going to come from the shallow end of the intelligence pool.

That is not to say you won't have outliers, but people with more on the ball tend to be quicker to pick up on things or digest constructive criticism when they are doing something inadequately.

The adaptability of elite servicemen to whatever training requirements they need to meet is the entire premise behind the G19 being a safe administrative handling choice for operators after all.

Among the merely average, hot chambered Glocks and M&Ps have repeatedly proven resistant to safe gun handling practices by a significant fraction of carriers in large police agencies.

Such NDs serve to underscore that most people issued a handgun are not in fact "gun people," a fact of life that is no less true in the military at large. You, me, and others here are usually not the possessors of those worrisome index fingers or ignorant about muzzle control. Lots of other people who are in no way pistol "enthusiasts" are generally the "training resistant" problem.

If anything, the run of the mill soldier, sailor, airman, whatever, gets way less annual fam-fire than does than even a poorly trained cop. That won't change if a striker fired passive safety pistol ever gets generally adopted. They will still be carried in Condition 3 except in active combat zones and the pistol's mode of carry will still be dictated by the LCD carriers out there.

 

[oli700]

thanks for the thoughtful explanation....I am educated and shamefully enough nothing taught me having the ultimate focus on safety with weapons like a negligent discharge, thankfully no one was hurt.
It was complacency ..... Grew up with a gun in my hand and never had one till I was a 30 something year old man

 

[Boats]

You need to get some badly needed coherence into your arguments.

The Glock was made by a curtain rod manufacturer to compete for an Austrian pistol contract for a force of conscripts that don't fight anywhere. Let's not get revisionist.

If "designed as a fighting arm" is the criterion of excellence, then JMB, a prolific weapons designer, and his creations have ol' Gaston whupped.

Are you railing against safeties? If so, why is there one on every modern service rifle and combat shotgun ever made? Safeties undeniably aid in the administrative handling of loaded firearms. That's why they exist. Anyone who has the safety "ON" when carrying a M9 chambered is doing it wrong. Anyone not using the safety on a chambered 1911A1 is also doing it wrong. Anyone who is Mexican carrying a chambered Glock is again doing it wrong. The manual of arms of various auto pistols is dependent upon their design intentions. There is no one size fits all solution to be had.

Or is it that are you railing against the military's general practice of empty chamber carry? That is done with Glocks in the IDF over in Israel you know? It's done "inside the wire" by every military unit of the US, even the SEALs, because of past gun handling mistakes caused by extreme fatigue if not outright stupidity.

Military fools overcame the 1911's thumb and grip safety and a mandated condition 3 carry when I served and they managed some NDs.

Fools in service today still overcome the M9's trigger disconnect/decocker and 10-12 pound DA first pull AND mandated condition 3 carry to have NDs with that pistol. Had a butter bar fresh out of Anapolis shoot the fantail's towed sonar array while being an inattentive dink with one.

So yes, let's give those same mouth breathers' successors a striker fired handgun with a 5.5 pound short stroke trigger pull and let them carry it hot. What could possibly go wrong?

Did you serve in the Armed Forces? It sounds as if you haven't or you'd know firsthand why the DoD has never gone the direction you want to head.

 

[farpolemiddle]

"Anyone who has the safety "ON" when carrying a M9 chambered is doing it wrong. Anyone not using the safety on a chambered 1911A1 is also doing it wrong. Anyone who is Mexican carrying a chambered Glock is again doing it wrong. The manual of arms of various auto pistols is dependent upon their design intentions. There is no one size fits all solution to be had.

Or is it that are you railing against the military's general practice of empty chamber carry? That is done with Glocks in the IDF over in Israel you know? It's done "inside the wire" by every military unit of the US, even the SEALs, because of past gun handling mistakes caused by extreme fatigue if not outright stupidity.

Military fools overcame the 1911's thumb and grip safety and a mandated condition 3 carry when I served and they managed some NDs.

Fools in service today still overcome the M9's trigger disconnect/decocker and 10-12 pound DA first pull AND mandated condition 3 carry to have NDs with that pistol. Had a butter bar fresh out of Anapolis shoot the fantail's towed sonar array while being an inattentive dink with one."


MOST of the NDs I have seen with the M9 were into the clearing barrel by tired people or towards the end of the deployment because they do not pay as much attention, usually failing to drop the mag and still doing the old school pull the trigger.

I agree the M9 should be carried on fire with the hammer down but give it a try. Both active and Guard I would get my as chewed. Last trip I got the Serpa Holster that is longer and covers the safety so no one could see it on fire.

The Brits had G17s and seamed to do fine with them but had level 3 Serpa style holsters and were religious about loading and unloading at clearing barrels under the supervision of PSG or LT.

The empty chamber inside the wire thing really does depend on the FOB. My first trip to Afghanistan my Rifle was hot all the time. I am talking hanging by the sling on my rack ready to rock. Went to Iraq and was surprised that I wasn't even allowed to have the mag in the weapon. Kind of a pain in PTs. Made for a lot of weird POG stock pouches.

If anyone is really that concerned about the Glock without a safety isn't there a retrofit option?

http://www.tarnhelm.com/GlockSafety.html

Pistols really are not that important anyway. Sure operators running around all high speed in small teams taking down bad guys left and right use them but not the rule. They also come in real handy for PSD/Guardian Angel type missions.
The best part about having a pistol overseas is not having to drag my rifle around base. Most of the time though I am just lug around a giant heavy pistol that runs like crap because it is 20 years old, tiny sights, stupid safety location, and twice as big as it needs to be. Then I get to watch the MARSOC dudes strut around with their sweet 45s and mission Glocks.

 

[Boats]

I'd say a FOB is a special case, as the name implies. In secure areas, empty chamber is universally ordered by career minded COs.

On some level, the "military pistol debate" is incredibly stupid. The world didn't end back when the Army was using .44 and .45 caliber revolvers and the Navy .36 cal. It didn't end when the Air Force was using a lot of .38 Specials instead of 1911s. It didn't end when the 1911A1, M9 and SIG P228 served simultaneously.

The services should be allowed to procure their own small arms, standardized on jointly selected calibers.

In the infantry heavy forces, shotguns are an afterthought. Onboard ship and for boarding other vessels, they are a huge part of the Navy's arsenal. I wouldn't want the Army picking the shotguns service wide when they primarily use them for breaching rather than ship defense and assault.

In a similar vein, I wouldn't want a point click handgun for searching possible and outright hostile vessels. I have done that job scores of times and on smaller vessels there are possible balance issues where perfect gun handling will be more aspirational than guaranteed, and on larger vessels lots of ladder and steep staircase ascents/descents where you want your sidearm out, but wouldn't want to risk an ND moving about unfamiliar spaces. There's also a lot of (hopefully blind) reholstering to get two hands on stubborn hatch/watertight door wheels and other stuff, an activity striker fired passive safety pistols have not excelled at.

As for rifles, the Big Navy has plenty of M-16/M4 variants, but they also hold onto a big share of the M-14s still in service too. The 7.62x51 remains more useful at sea for its hitting power at range than is the 5.56.

Each service should select what firearms best meet their most common mission parameters, not what the others might prefer based upon theirs.

 

[clearconscience]

I would love to see the reports of glocks that failed and why.
Almost every case I've read people screwed with the Glock "perfection" and joebob'd it all up. Or they had 20k rounds through them.

Anyone bad talking a Glock just has some steel superiority complex.

Just like dodge, chevy, ford guys, etc.

People who crucify Glocks are akin to liberals. Using flawed logic and twisted facts to support their agenda.

I've owned Beretta 92FS, a Sig P229, and now 3 Glocks.
I do regret getting rid of the Beretta. I hated the Sig. And I love to Glocks for several reasons.

 

[Stomper]

This thread left the station DAYS AGO!!

 

[Boats]

Its going around. New Zealand Defense Force Replaces SIG P226 With Glock 17

Lol. I'll go with Chris Costa of Costa Ludis on this topic. I paraphrase him from a YouTube interview:

"As a private individual you get to choose what works best for you. In a military or law enforcement setting you have to work with what they give you."

I know which situation I'd rather have to deal with.

 

[Craig O]

I hammers cost the guberment $10,000.00 How much is a Glock going to cost ?

 

[erudne]

Boy, you guys sure love to talk
Boats
FYI The Wright Bros made bicycles, long before they invented the air foil. Huges made drill bits, ad infinitum

 

[coop44]

It's a wonder the fn wasn't in the running, fnx or fns