Northwest Must Sale of a Private Party COMPLETED Poly80 Glock Clone Frame Go Through 4473 Transfer Process?

[washagonian]

Must Sale of a Private Party COMPLETED Poly80 Glock Clone Frame Go Through 4473 Transfer Process?

Okay people, help me figure out if I've got my thumb stuck up my @$$ or if I'm partially, or completely correct.

Over the past couple of months I've tracked at least four folks (they're new to the forum with little to no feedback - but I realize that does NOT mean that they are newbies to firearms) offering for sale P80 Glock clone completed frames (or fully functioning P80 Glock clone firearms) and they believe that they and the buyer do NOT have to go through the 4473 transfer process.

There seems to be this perception that because I did NOT build/complete the frame with the INTENT to sell it (my intent was to build it just for my use), the means that later I CAN sell it without going through the 4473 transfer process.

For the sake of narrowing the discussion, let's focus on the least common demonminator - completed (milled and drilled), stripped (no LPK), P80 Glock clone frames.

A milled and drilled (completed) Poly80 Glock clone pistol frame (even if its stripped) has, and still does, meet the ATF definition of a "frame" and is considered the part of the firearm that must go through the transfer / background check process if sold or given to someone else (other than my specific relative in Oregon, yada yada).

Final Rule 2021R-05F further clarifies the definition of a frame (4/11/22 - signed by AG, 4/26/22 - published in Fed. Register, 8/24/22 - effective date of regulation). Though it doesn't add or change anything to this particular Poly80 Glock clone frame discussion.

My understanding of the laws and regs I have researched is that if I sell one of my Poly80 completed frames (no matter what my intention was when I built it) without going through the transfer/background check process, to some guy who cannot legally possess a firearm, I have violated the law in my home state of Oregon (which is the same as Washington) by transferring a firearm to that individual. That seems like a no-brainer to me.

For argument's sake, even if the buyer CAN legally own a firearm, I posit that it MUST go through the 4473 process and a background check, no matter what my intent was when I built the frame. Because there is nothing in any law or reg. that I am aware of that provides that the "intent" of the manufacturer (me) exempts that legal firearm from going through the 4473 transfer process.

I realize that I do NOT have to serialize my Poly80 completed frame for my own use. But, where the serial number comes into play is that an FFL will not complete a transfer without the frame having a serial number. (Final Rule 2021R-05F does provide a LOT of direction about FFL's serializing PMF's = "Privately Made Firearms".)

OK - let the fun begin.

Thanks.

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[Yarome]

It's perfectly fine to sell one, but it "must" go through an FFL (4473) and will have to be serialized.

Your other understandings are completely correct.

You are not required to serialize your PMF for personal use, only if it is transferred to another owner though an FFL. Milled or even partially drilled, stripped or complete... it's now a "firearm".

 

[solv3nt]

That was my understanding, which is the same understanding that if you load ammo and sell it, your intention is no longer for personal use.

 

[User 1234]

The fact that the receiver was made from an 80 greatly complicates the situation and heightens the risks. I would sell everything except the receiver. Destroy it if it is not grandfathered and you don't want it. How much can a privately made receiver add to the sale even if an FFL serialized it? $50 at most?

 

[Yarome]

The fact that the receiver was made from an 80 greatly complicates the situation and heightens the risks. I would sell everything except the receiver. Destroy it if it is not grandfathered and you don't want it. How much can a privately made receiver add to the sale even if an FFL serialized it? $50 at most?

How so? It's a firearm just like any other firearm. Slap a serial number on it and it's good to go. There's no more risk than any other.

I think many buyers are looking to purchase functional firearms and not just parts to have to put together their own build. Some do, but it's really no skin off anyones nose to sell it fully functional.

I could be wrong, but I kind of got the impression from the OP that he was mainly talking a lower only sale(?) In that case it's kind of moot if you're talking frame only, anyway.

I certainly wouldn't destroy it or toss it out. They are worth perfectly good money to the right buyer... although... with a complete firearm, it may be possible to break it down and sell components for more money. A lot of places strip brand new handguns into parts to sell as components. Kind of a hassle though with multiple buyers and meet ups or shipping, IMHO.

To each their own.

 

[AMT]

A few years ago i wanted to find out for myself exactly what you are asking. I found on the ATF website a .pdf that goes through this very question. My saved copy is a 6-page .pdf file file that is dated January 2, 2015. (Send me a PM with your email address and I will email it to you).







On page 2, second paragraph, it states:

"As defined by section 921(a)(21)(A), the term "engaged in the business" means, as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, "a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured."





Per the ATF anyone who is legally allowed to possess and own a firearm can make/manufacture a firearm for their own personal use. I don't think this has ever been disputed on here (NWFA) or anywhere else (that i know of). In doing so the individual DOES NOT need a manufacturer or distributor license. And it DOES NOT need to be serialized.

If the 80% was initially intended to be "manufactured" (completed) by the original purchaser, and the original purchaser does NOT finish 80%'ers "with the principle objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of firearms manufactured" the way i read and understand it is that it is perfectly legal to sell the complete or incomplete 80%.

Now, you may have some explaining to do if you complete and sell a certain number (pick a number) and sell them monthly/annually. I'd say that legally you could get away with selling a 2-3 per year. This could definitely prove that you are NOT selling them for "livelihood or profit".

I guess to answer your question(s) further:

*Yes, you can finish an 80% frame/lower and sell it WITHOUT having to have it serialized.
*Yes, you can finish a complete firearm with an 80% frame/lower and sell it without having to have it serialized.
*No, you do not need to have it serialized before selling it.


Now let the flaming begin???

 

[Yarome]

*NO Yes, you cannot finish an 80% frame/lower and sell it WITHOUT having to have it serialized.
*NO Yes, you cannot finish a complete firearm with an 80% frame/lower and sell it without having to have it serialized.
*YES No, you do not need to have it serialized before selling it.

FIFY

That info is outdated.

Please see Definition of "Frame or Receiver" and Identification of Firearms



(Side Note: There have also been some new laws regarding 80%'s in WA state recently that you may wish to research.)

 

[Stomper]

This is about 80% AR lowers but it'll pertain to 80% pistol lowers as well…

 

[AMT]

Oh, I know about Washington's effed up BS they are pulling. Can't wait to leave!

 

[billdeserthills]

Not in Arizona, you can still buy unserialized 80% lowers here

PF940Cv1 Compact Blank - Black

Product DescriptionIncludes:80% BlankRear Rail ModuleLocking Block Rail SystemTwo 3mm pinsThis product does not include a jig.On August 10, 2022, the Superior Court for the District of Columbia ruled that Polymer80 handgun frames, lower receivers, Buy, Build, Shoot kits and any comparable...

www.polymer80.com

That's what my bud tells me, anyhow...

 

[titsonritz]

Defund the AFT and stupid** questions like this would go away.


**Not that the question itself is stupid, the fact it needs to asked is stupid.

 

[Yarome]

Not in Arizona, you can still buy unserialized 80% lowers here

PF940Cv1 Compact Blank - Black

Product DescriptionIncludes:80% BlankRear Rail ModuleLocking Block Rail SystemTwo 3mm pinsThis product does not include a jig.On August 10, 2022, the Superior Court for the District of Columbia ruled that Polymer80 handgun frames, lower receivers, Buy, Build, Shoot kits and any comparable...

www.polymer80.com

That's what my bud tells me, anyhow...

You can buy 80%'s everywhere without an FFL, except in states that have laws that prohibit it (like WA). What you can't do, is buy or sell a "milled' 80% (now a "firearm") without going through an FFL... unless... an FFL transfer is not required. IE., Some states are still American and private party sales/purchases are allowed without requiring an FFL and BGC.

...like in AZ... your buddy is correct if he means private party sale/purchase.

If it has to go through an FFL, anywhere, federal rules require serialization.

This thread was talking about OR, which requires an FFL transfer even for private party sales/purchase.

 

[billdeserthills]

Defend the AFT and stupid** questions like this would go away.


**Not that the question itself is stupid, the fact it needs to asked is stupid.

We could also get the same result if we Boot the BATFE

Boot The BATFE Lapel Pin

Please note - allow approximately 14 business days for delivery.Give the BATFE the Boot! Our ''Boot the BATFE'' lapel pin is about 1-inch wide and 1-and-one-quarter-inches high. Enameled, gold lettering on black background with gold accents. (Limited quantities)

store.jpfo.org

 

[titsonritz]

We could also get the same result if we Boot the BATFE

Boot The BATFE Lapel Pin

Please note - allow approximately 14 business days for delivery.Give the BATFE the Boot! Our ''Boot the BATFE'' lapel pin is about 1-inch wide and 1-and-one-quarter-inches high. Enameled, gold lettering on black background with gold accents. (Limited quantities)

store.jpfo.org

That was suppose to be "defund" not "defend". Even the damn autocorrect has gone all censorship.

 

[washagonian]

It's perfectly fine to sell one, but it "must" go through an FFL (4473) and will have to be serialized.

Your other understandings are completely correct.

You are not required to serialize your PMF for personal use, only if it is transferred to another owner though an FFL. Milled or even partially drilled, stripped or complete... it's now a "firearm".

Your understanding is exacted what I understand.

If the P80 frame is milled and drilled and complete - it's meets the legal definition of the part of the firearm that MUST be transferred. There is NO exemption in any law that I can find which says that the builder of a "Privately Made Firearm" can transfer their privately made firearm WITHOUT going through an FFL and the transfer process.

Why would the builder/manufacturer matter? If I sell one of my Glock FRAMES, or a PSA Dagger FRAME, or a Ruger SR1911 FRAME, I am required to transfer it through an FFL and the buyer must complete the 4473 and BGC process.

Where is the legal exemption that says I can sell one of my completed Poly80 frames WITHOUT going through the transfer process?

 

[washagonian]

I could be wrong, but I kind of got the impression from the OP that he was mainly talking a lower only sale(?) In that case it's kind of moot if you're talking frame only, anyway.

Yes, the focus of the post was on completed frames/lowers.

But I also ran into a guy trying to sell his full P80 Glock clone build and talking about just meeting up and exchanging cash for the pistol. I PM'd the guy and encouraged him to be careful, because he needs to serialize the pistol and sell via the transfer process through an FFL. I was tactful and polite.

He gave me a nasty response saying that it was a P80 build, thus it never had a serial number and because it never had a serial number he and a buyer did not have to go through an FFL - 4473/BGC transfer process.

That is NOT my understanding of the law around COMPLETED P80 frames / lowers and selling/transfers.

 

[washagonian]

Not in Arizona, you can still buy unserialized 80% lowers here

PF940Cv1 Compact Blank - Black

Product DescriptionIncludes:80% BlankRear Rail ModuleLocking Block Rail SystemTwo 3mm pinsThis product does not include a jig.On August 10, 2022, the Superior Court for the District of Columbia ruled that Polymer80 handgun frames, lower receivers, Buy, Build, Shoot kits and any comparable...

www.polymer80.com

That's what my bud tells me, anyhow...

Howdy,

Just to clarify, the example you provided is for an incomplete, P80 frame, which does NOT meet the definition of a firearm.

The focus of the post and discussion is on COMPLETED P80 frames (milled and drilled) and ready to accept a lower parts kit and then upper assembly.

 

[Yarome]

Howdy,

Just to clarify, the example you provided is for an incomplete, P80 frame, which does NOT meet the definition of a firearm.

The focus of the post and discussion is on COMPLETED P80 frames (milled and drilled) and ready to accept a lower parts kit and then upper assembly.

Well... in his example, he was talkin about AZ. Some states still allow private party sales that don't require an FFL transfer/BGC. They CAN sell unserialized completed 80% builds, private party, but if they sell it to or through an FFL... federal rules come into play and it'll end up having to be serialized before being sold/transferred.

 

[Yarome]

Where is the legal exemption....?

Your rhetorical question is spot on. It don't exist.

He gave me a nasty response saying that it was a P80 build, thus it never had a serial number and because it never had a serial number he and a buyer did not have to go through an FFL - 4473/BGC transfer process.

He is absolutely misinformed... or... he knows bubblegum well it's illegal and trying to offload a shady pew-pew device with deception.

 

[Yarome]

One side note. An 80% frame or receiver doesn't have to be completely milled to be considered a "firearm". ANY amount of work or markings on it can transform it into a firearm.

Recently, the alphabets put out a clarification for receivers. Even a dimple where a hole should be drilled, but hasn't yet, will be considered a "firearm". Beware!