Moving While Shooting

[natef]

15 yards honestly sounds about right. Try this experiment. Next time your in a crowd or even just driving down the street do the what if game in your head. If you do an honest eval of both what would happen and what your reaction should be and really honestly think it through you will find that 15 yards is a blink.

 

[CHLChris]

I don't understand some of that "competition creates bad habits" thing. Any skill practiced wrong will create bad habits. USPSA could cause some "bad" habits in that you are taught to only put 2 rounds into every threat, shoot from the open without regard to cover, and you always unload and holster an empty gun. But on the other side of the coin, you get tons of practice with administrative handling of the gun over and over, practice with reloads, and getting hits on targets even if moving.

Anything can create bad habits, but competition can be really helpful for any shooter, for the very fact that it gets people pulling the trigger a lot more.

 

[JB25]

I dont think he was knocking competition outright. Rather just implying that it doesnt translate directly to a le or civilian defensive situation. Competition wont cause bad habits if all you do is competition. But if your using it as your sole means of training for a scenario like the one stated above, yes you will have "bad" habits that could end up getting you hurt or killed.

 

[MikeE]

What about moving off the x while clearing garments and drawing, then plant and shoot?

 

[wichaka]

First competition;

Bad habits - Exposing yourself to threats while engaging; only two rounds per target; and as explained above, showing clear and holstering an empty gun.

The good side of the coin - I think weapon manipulations while moving, working with your chosen set up on your belt while under some kind of stress can yield very good things.

"Administrative Handling" can be done anytime, anywhere without paying the entry fee.

When I do competition with friends i.e. Single Stack Classic in Albany most every year, I set my belt up the same way as I have when I'm on the street. Being consistent with ALL of your gear is key. Having to get your brain to figure street vs competition could be disastrous.

I drive a stick shift a lot, so when I get into an auto trans vehicle, the first thing I feel myself doing is my foot looking for the clutch peddle and my hand for the stick shift that's not there.

I've seen the same thing happen in competition, folks grabbing for things that aren't there, as they are not using said equipment enough to get their brain in tune properly with what they are carrying at the time.

I tend to stay away from anything that shouts "But it gets people pulling the trigger a lot more." Merely pulling the trigger is not always a good thing, depends on how its done...and I think that goes without saying. 80-90% of what we do as shooters can be accomplished without firing a round.

I had a disagreement with a guy some time back on another thread because he was going out and shooting to sight his gun in etc. I told him that anytime you fire a gun its training. Its another repetition of the proper fundamentals of shooting. There should be no difference. Its the same presentation, grip, sight pic/alignment etc. He said it wasn't, its just shooting...to each their own I guess.

 

[wichaka]

What about moving off the x while clearing garments and drawing, then plant and shoot?

That is a very good thing to do, and practice often.

 

[Swedish K]

I will say that with out a doubt bad habits can be ingrained in training/competition. Just look at CHP - several years ago the range master and training officers at the academy always wanted a bubblegum and span range and didn't like "wasting time" patrolling up the brass from training so they instructed cadets to dump their brass in their pocket when reloading. To clarify, this was back when they were issuing revolvers and hadn't yet adopted semi auto pistols. The result was slower reloads, no way to tell where reloads occurred at a crime scene, and more than a couple officers found shot or dead with their hand in their pocket full of brass. CHP was sued by the family of at least one of the deceased officers for improper training leading to the cause of death (and they won).
* Note - I don't have links to any of the law suits about this but it was relayed to me by the lead gunsmith (now retired) at the academy.

While training is good and improves skills, training with bad habits reinforces those bad habits.

 

[natef]

Interesting how this thread has evolved from moving while shooting to bad habits and training.

Here is a question I talk about with people quite a bit. How do you train for malfunctions? Obvously there are some malfunctions that you cant easily manufacture either at home or on the range but this is what I do.

I have made up through reloading about 20 rounds for varous guns of mine that have no primer and no powder but other than that are exact duplicates of live round (they do have paint in the base of the case so they arent mixed into mags accidentaly) when I am out at the range or woods I will mix those into a magazine randomly. its great for that split moment thought process of bang bang click.... identify problem, clear problem, bang bang bang. there are obvously other ways to train this skill but this works great and they last far longer than those orange traingin rounds.

what do you guys do for training these skills?

 

[SmawGunner]

We can all "what if" this topic to death again. Shooting on the move vs stand and deliver. If you want to know if shooting on the move will save your life in a gunfight then do a force on force FOF test with airsoft, UTM, or simunition from concealed. Try to make it as realistic as possible. Face to face at 5 yds. You dont draw until the bad guy draws because he will have the jump on you. Moving first (getting off the X) then delivering hits on target after your moving resets the bad guys ooda loop. Shooting on the move has been proven in FOF to save your life in a gunfight. Take a FOF class from Roger Philips and he will teach you how to dominate a gun fight with movement while still delivering accurate fire. The gunfight will be over in 3 seconds and you will still be alive. Out of all the firearms training I have ever had across all the disciplines, this class provided me with the most important and valuable skill set for the most likely of self defense scenarios.

 

[SmawGunner]

"You are responsible for every round".

As a civilian, if someone draws on me then I am going to get off the X, then start shooting on the move. I dont care about groups. And if one slips by thats OK because I just want to live. If you hold back at all or hesitate then your dead. Its also well documented that statistically LEO dont care about every round either.

I think square range instructors like to use this saying "you are responsible for every round" so they can justify their out dated square range stand and deliver drills that will get you killed in a gunfight in the real world.

Dont let anybody talk you into only training for square range stand and deliver BS. You still need to train for accuracy but then you also need add get off the X. The 2 skill sets are a deadly combo and will keep you alive when someone has the drop on you.

 

[wichaka]

You mentioned the FOF being at 5 yards and being face to face, at that distance that's where shooting on the move becomes a necessary skill.

Teaching looking for cover at that distance more than likely will be disastrous.

As for being responsible for every round, let's make sure we're keeping it in proper context.

 

[wichaka]

Nate, I do the same when training for malfunctions. I have someone else load my mags,
that way you don't know when they will show up.

I always have a good supply of dummy rounds on hand. I like the type that are brass cased.

 

[wichaka]

"You are responsible for every round".

Its also well documented that statistically LEO dont care about every round either.

I wouldn't go as far to say they don't care. When the adrenaline is pumping, I would dare say they have the same mind set as you and every other person involved in a fire fight. As you said..."I just want to live" They do to.

I think square range instructors like to use this saying "you are responsible for every round" so they can justify their out dated square range stand and deliver drills that will get you killed in a gunfight in the real world.

Nothing more than a reminder. Like going over the four gun safety rules ala Col. Cooper...just a reminder.

So am not sure how a reminder like that is out dated., and relates to square range instructors. If that's the case, then I guess a lot of top tier instructors are "square range" types.

Dont let anybody talk you into only training for square range stand and deliver BS. You still need to train for accuracy but then you also need add get off the X. The 2 skill sets are a deadly combo and will keep you alive when someone has the drop on you.

Getting off the x is an important skill matter, as I mentioned in the post that started this thread...its not an advanced firearm skill, its basic. Having a gunfight at 5-7 yards takes on much different tactics that one that starts at 15-20 yards and beyond.

Nate brought that up;

"...you arrive onsite of an active shooter, you can id the shooter but they are out of effective range. are you going to go running up shots blazing until you get in range? or are you going to sprint towards them with utilizing cover until you are sure of your shot distance and then engage? Would it change the situation if the shooter was engaging you? what if you had a partner? this is absolutely a war game it out kind of situation. but stems back to two thought process on movement."

All possibilities that demand a different response. One can't possibly cover everything, but if you train for a wide range of response possibilities, you'll have more to draw from.

 

[8ball]

Great thread. Where can you do FOF training in Seattle?

 

[wichaka]

Look up Insights, here's a link;

http://www.insightstraining.com/default.asp

 

[natef]

FOF training doesnt have to be at any special training location. It helps to have some direction to go with the way the day will play out but can be set up easily enough with just 8-10 people and the woods. get yourself some good airsoft guns and break into two teams. set up 1/2 mile or so appart and start patroling in the general direction of each other (it helps if you set boundries) quickly you will find that you will find each other and have to set up RP's, call out ACE reports, hasty ambushes ect. It makes for a great day in the woods and usually ends with a couple of beers and sore knuckles (wear gloves and eye pro with airsoft). Its a great oppertunity to use hand signals for coms as well as try out any type of radio equipment you may have (really tests the limits of certin coms equipment in deep woods) If anyone is interested I would be up for setting up some type of FOF out in the eastern side of Portland Metro (probably outside sandy or esticada) the nice thing about it is that you can go places that are closed to shooting conventional firearms. also if you go somwhere where there are other people not involved in the games it can be benificial for helping learn about concielment and camo.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I used to play paintball on a well known tournament team. Movement and accuracy are the keys to survival. We did mostly 5 on 5 tournaments in woodland settings, large 10 to 20 acre fields, not the small rapid fire fields you see these days. We used semi-auto, carbine type weapons with 200 round magazines. Sometimes we practiced two-on-two or one-on-one. Stealth and use of cover were major factors. I learned early on that rapid moving and shooting at the same time is a losing proposition. You can fire accurately from a measured walking pace, but I don't believe many people can hit anything when running at a sprint.

Keep in mind that we were deadly accurate shooting without really using sights most of the time. Sights had their place, but usually in stealth situations or when your opponent did not know your location. I can remember several times, situations arising where the only way to get at an opponent was to step around an object, like a rock or wall, and shoot on the move. I rarely remember making any hits.

As for the active shooter situation, if I'm not on his radar I want to stay that way as I approach. I want to use cover and move when he's otherwise occupied (reloading, looking elsewhere, etc.). Once within range, I want to make my first shot as good as I can make it. I've instinctively settled on 3 shot bursts over the years. I want to make that first shot as good as I can, then follow up with two more. After that, it's imperative to move as soon as possible. You will be found and engaged. If you can change positions without being seen, do so. In a firefight, staying in one spot, even with good cover for more than a few seconds means your opponent is gaining a better angle of fire and planning how to flank you. Your movement keeps your opponent on the defensive. If you have a partner, spread out. Get far enough apart that one of you can get a good angle of fire. A good team learns how to lay down suppressive fire while their partners move to better positions. It's hard for a single combatant to engage two or more opponents at the same time. That advice on movement whenever possible goes double if it's a one-on-one situation and you've been engaged. The best advantage you can have is your opponent not knowing exactly where you are. I've lost very few one-on-ones, and it's because I keep moving whenever possible, changing cover, and making my opponent guess at my location.

 

[wichaka]

Great post, thanks for the input.

Active shooter training consists of skulking and lurking without detection, moving swiftly and being a hunter, killer, with little opportunity for the shooter to surrender.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Great post, thanks for the input.

Active shooter training consists of skulking and lurking without detection, moving swiftly and being a hunter, killer, with little opportunity for the shooter to surrender.

I used to be nicknamed "The Assassin" on the paintball fields for doing just that in heavy cover.

 

[ScrewTape]

Some really insightful things said here in regards to training, moving, shooting. Thank you for the posts.