Moving to grizzly country

[The Heretic]

If 6 rounds of .44 mag "bounced off" a bears skull--
Did they recover the dead bear and find six hits? How, if they all bounced off the bear presumably didnt die and ran off. At which point I wonder whether any shots hit the bear at all.

If bear actually was recovered and had six gouges where bullets deflected off skull, betcha the bullets were HPs or round nosed.

It was many years ago I read this, not on the internet - long before the internet, but in an outdoors magazine, I think in a doctors office. Sports Afield maybe? It made an impression on me, and as I recall it was 240 gr. JHPs. This was back in a time when "bear loads" for handguns were pretty rare.

Googling you can find various stories of various bullets bouncing off the skull of a grizzly. Didn't dig enough to find verified incidents.

My point was not that the .44 magnum is not powerful enough, but rather that ammo choice is important, bullet placement is important, and that there are no magic bullets that will stop a large bear attack instantly.

 

[bbbass]

I always carried a 12ga with slugs in big bear country. But the first load was #8s. Reason being that typical brown bear encounters do happen quickly, and the smaller shot is intended to mess up the nose and eyes so they can't find me.

Regarding bear spray being the quickest, safest, most effective bear defense... it sounds like something the tree huggers or the Fish & Fuzz people would say. I'm very much reminded of the story of two forest survey workers that both carried bear spray, and neither could successfully deploy it during their griz attack, thanx to the difficulty of getting the safety mechanisms off. One was severely mauled and the bear buried him and marked him with bear pee. The bear was going to come back and eat him later. Choose your spray cans carefully and keep them where you can get to them FAST!!

 

[The Heretic]

Can a bullet bounce off a bears head?

 

[OldBroad44]

The problem that a bullet can deflect off an object when it hits at an angle is especially relevant in bear self defense because if the bear is facing you, most of the skull is very sloped relative to the bullet path. Specialized bear loads have flat rather than round noses and sharp rather than smooth edges exactly because these are less likely to deflect in situations such as when the bullet hits bone at an angle. Round nosed bullets are notorious for deflecting in such situations. And HPs and JSPs are basically round nosed bullets designed not to penetrate, both serious flaws for a bear load.

There are a lot of videos on YouTube showing penetration of various bullets of various things. Numbers of 2-inch boards penetrated, for example. Or pieces of sheet metal. But the tests I've seen always place the boards or sheet metal perpendicular to the path of the bullet. That conceals the tendency of bullets to deflect. I would really like to see such penetration tests include tests with the target at an angle to the path of the bullet. The sort of angle relevant if you have to shoot a charging bear in the brain.

In the example given, the bear skull was hit at such a wide angle from perpendicular, the bullet almost missed the bear entirely. I kind of suspect no bullet of any caliber would have penetrated under that circumstance. But that isnt what we would call proper placement either.

 

[44s rock]

ALASKAN GUIDE, PHIL SHOEMAKER, USES 9MM OUTDOORSMAN ROUNDS IN An S&W 3954 TO STOP AN ATTACKING GRIZZLY - See story and photos below.

Tim,

Two days ago I was guiding a couple from NY on a fishing trip and decided to pack my S&W 3954 pistol. When we were approaching the stream we bumped into a large boar who must have been sleeping as we were talking loud just so we wouldn't surprise one. Over the past 33 years I have lived and guided here on the Alaska peninsula I have never had to kill a bear in defense of life but this bear was different.

We were in thick brush and I was only 8 or 10 feet from the bear when he started growling and huffing. I began yelling and it eventually ran around, behind my two clients, into the brush. But within 15 seconds it came charging back from the area behind us and popped out of the brush 10 feet from me! I had the little S&W in my hands and was thinking I was probably going to have to shoot it but as it cleared the brush it headed toward my clients. The man had enough sense to grab his wife and fall backward into the tall grass. The bear seemed to lose track of them, even though it was less than 3 feet away from them and it was highly agitated! It then swung toward me, I was 6 or 8 feet away, and I fired the first shot into the area between the head and shoulder. It growled and started wildly thrashing around, still basically on the feet of my clients. My next shot hit it in the shoulder and it began twisting and biting at the hits and I continued firing as fast as I could see vitals. Five shots later it turned into the brush and I hit it again and it twisted and fell 20 feet from us!

We hiked out and I flew back to camp to report the incident to F&G and pick up my daughter to go back and skin the bear for F&G.

You are the first person I have told this story to as I haven't decided whether to write it up or not, or where, but thought you should know that your ammo WORKS. We recovered 4 of the bullets and I took a photo of the back of the bear after the hide was removed that shows an entry on one side of the back and the tip of the bullet on the off side ...

Phil Shoemaker

 

[PNWguy]

The problem that a bullet can deflect off an object when it hits at an angle is especially relevant in bear self defense because if the bear is facing you, most of the skull is very sloped relative to the bullet path.

Looking at a grizzly skull is very enlightening if you understand physics...

 

[Deacon]

Hey all, I'm moving to the Flathead County area of Montana

Very jealous, I've been eyeing the Kalispell area for a potential move in the next ten years. Beautiful country up there .

 

[Lawbider]

small bells tied to your hiking boots...seriously. Let them know you're coming.

20 years ago, wife and I spent a couple of weeks in the Bob Marshall Wilderness area, camping alongside a river in late September. First morning there, an immense grizzly came crashing down thru the deadwood on the slope across the river, crossing it about 200 hundred yards below us. Spent the rest of the day in camp, with the Mossberg 12 Ga Mariner, loaded with Sabot slugs, never more then a quick grab away. Later that afternoon same grizzly crossed the river nd busted his way upslope and disappeared.
Wife and I headed downriver, tracked his prints into a massive thicket of Loganberries where he had been obviously gorging.
Griz did this every day for the next 6 days, arrived same time in the am, departed same time in the afternoon. Got to where I was willing to let that shotgun rest on the bank while we flyfished in the river.
Seventh day, no griz. Around mid morning, several trucks pulling horse trailers showed up and began making camp. Ambled over and asked what was up. Guy I asked turned out to be the head guide, his crew were setting up base camps, clients would be arriving later in the day, following day was the start of bear season, and they would be heading out on multi night pack trips.
Told him about the griz, and he just laughed, 'yea, don't ask me how, but he somehow knows. Been trying to catch up with that particular bastard for years."

While we were chatting asked him about weapons of choice. He said his belted .44 magnum was a last resort, preferred a .300 magnum rifle instead. "The problem with handguns is you have to draw and aim, if you're carrying a rifle you're already halfway there, just gotta aim...and not miss."

Guide also recommended carrying my 12 ga with the first round 00 buckshot, and slugs after that...said aim for the face, getting a faceful of buckshot might slow him up some, then give him the slugs

 

[forfreedom]

Hey all, I'm moving to the Flathead County area of Montana and I was wondering what type of sidearm you would carry while hiking. My thought would be either a S&W 629 in .44 or a Glock 10mm. I'm leaning more towards the Glock due to my experience and training. However a .44 has its upside. Thoughts? Any response would be appreciated. Keys.

Congrats on the move! You'll be SO much happier, I moved to Bozeman area (three forks) 5 years ago, no regrets!!! Now we bought a house in Butte. I'll die here. I'd go with the 10mm... have a 44,45long colt. And really, don't see a use for any bigger than a 10... In fact, my main carry while "exploring " is a glock 22, converted into a 357sig. I'm sure someone will "mock" me, but it does me well. It is wild here, but the odds of "havn to fight off a big bad killer grizzly " is pretty far off. To many people think bears are running wild,attacking anything that comes in their area. Don't get me wrong, there are encounters, but rare. To me,I just like and enjoy the outdoors, don't really worry, you'll see more elk,deer,and catch more fish probably than you ever seen before !! People are great, country is beautiful. Good luck on your move, welcome to the. Treasure State

 

[Keys1971]

Very jealous, I've been eyeing the Kalispell area for a potential move in the next ten years. Beautiful country up there .

Kalispell has grown up a lot. Whitefish is where we will be buying.

 

[Keys1971]

Congrats on the move! You'll be SO much happier, I moved to Bozeman area (three forks) 5 years ago, no regrets!!! Now we bought a house in Butte. I'll die here. I'd go with the 10mm... have a 44,45long colt. And really, don't see a use for any bigger than a 10... In fact, my main carry while "exploring " is a glock 22, converted into a 357sig. I'm sure someone will "mock" me, but it does me well. It is wild here, but the odds of "havn to fight off a big bad killer grizzly " is pretty far off. To many people think bears are running wild,attacking anything that comes in their area. Don't get me wrong, there are encounters, but rare. To me,I just like and enjoy the outdoors, don't really worry, you'll see more elk,deer,and catch more fish probably than you ever seen before !! People are great, country is beautiful. Good luck on your move, welcome to the. Treasure State

And your comment is why we are moving. Everyone I have been in contact with are so polite.

 

[cmerrell75]

4 inch .500 S&W with Hornady 300gr ammo that is nearly 3000ft/lbs at the muzzle. That's getting into the level of muzzle energy from some hunting rifles, and it's a lot smaller. My father had an encounter with a black bear in some thick brush and I don't think a rifle was an option. His .44 mag was though, it didn't put the bear down, and a black bear is no grizzly, which is why I say go big or get eaten.

 

[KaniksuKidd]

I used to live on the Kenai Peninsula in Alaska. There are brown bears there that are much larger (1400 lb. range) than the grizzlies around Flathead Lake. We used to say that if you carried a .44 Mag for bear protection make sure to file off the front sight so when the bear takes it away from you and shoves it up you hiney it won't tear so much stuff up. Or you could always go out with a buddy and a .22LR handgun so you could shoot him in the leg and run like hell

Seriously though, a .44 mag with 250-300 gr flat nose cast lead bullets loaded to max or a 10 mm loaded with Underwood 150 gr Extreme Hunter fluted copper solids would be minimum handgun levels. Personally, I carried my trusty Marlin 1895 .45/70 with 400 gr. Speer jacketed soft points because the Beartooth Bullets 425 gr. cast lead flat points hadn't been manufactured yet. That's what I load in my .45/70 today. It squirts out the muzzle at around 1600 FPS and will thoroughly ventilate anything you want to kill dead right there. A rifle is a pain to carry c/t a handgun but is a LOT easier to shoot accurately and the power levels aren't even close. Also, the Marlin is lighter than a 12 bore pump.

I have a collection of Ruger Redhawks in various barrel lengths (the 5.5" is my favorite) and a S&W Model 69 in .44 Mag (4" barrel 5 shot). That Model 69 is SWEET! My 10 mm is a Springfield Armory XD-M. I handled the SA and a Glock 20 at the gun shop and liked the feel of the XD-M much better.

Always remember what Mr. Elmer Keith once said: Big bullets let in a lot of air and let out a lot of blood.

 

[OldBroad44]

4 inch .500 S&W with Hornady 300gr ammo that is nearly 3000ft/lbs at the muzzle. That's getting into the level of muzzle energy from some hunting rifles, and it's a lot smaller. My father had an encounter with a black bear in some thick brush and I don't think a rifle was an option. His .44 mag was though, it didn't put the bear down, and a black bear is no grizzly, which is why I say go big or get eaten.

Where did he hit bear? And with what kind of bullet?

 

[KaniksuKidd]

"My point was not that the .44 magnum is not powerful enough, but rather that ammo choice is important, bullet placement is important, and that there are no magic bullets that will stop a large bear attack instantly."

The Alaska Dept of Fins and Fur did a "study"in the early 1980's. When you shoot a bear in defense of life or property in Alaska and it is not hunting season you have to surrender the hide and the skull to the State. They get the hides tanned and sell them at auction at the Fur Rondy every February. They put the skulls in a big chest freezer at their headquarters in Anchorage. Eventually that freezer got full so some nimrod suggested thawing several out and taking them to the Rabbit Creek range just south of Anchorage, shoot them up with a variety of calibers and types of weapons, and see what happened. I believe this was published in Alaska magazine which is where I read it and committed that info to my memory banks.

In summary, for handguns if it began with a .4 and ended with "Magnum" it would reliably penetrate the skull of a brown bear. Remember, back in those days there were only the .41 and .44 Magnums.

Rifles: anything .30/30 or above would penetrate.

Shotguns: this is interesting. It was common practice to carry a high-capacity 12 bore alternating slugs and 00 buckshot. They tried 00 and 000 and none of the pellets penetrated the skull. Uh-oh! Then they fired 'em up with round nose Foster slugs. About 50% of these skidded off the skull w/o penetrating and had it been a living bear he would have a whopper of a headache and a bad attitude. Then they tried the then-new-to-the-market Brenneke slug which is shaped like a wadcutter with a sharp shoulder. Every one of the skulls they shot with a Brenneke wound up with a large hole all the way through it.

The moral of the story: EVERY fish cop, local cop, and Alaska State Trooper started carrying Brenneke slugs in their Remington 870's. I am personally aware of two one-shot head shot kills on the North Slope with Brennekes - one a "Tundra" grizzly and the other a Polar Bear. Guess what Kaniksu Kidd carries in his 12 bore?

 

[cmerrell75]

Where did he hit bear? And with what kind of bullet?

I'll have to bug him for details, this incident was many years ago.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Looking at a grizzly skull is very enlightening if you understand physics...

View attachment 572686

Physics usually charge around $1.98/minute..
not really hard to understand at all.

 

[PNWguy]

Physics usually charge around $1.98/minute..
not really hard to understand at all.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Since forever the .44 mag 240g jhp, sp were pretty much designed for griz.. they were way too stout to ever hope to expand on a deer, that's for sure.

 

[Cell Block 726]

Welcome, Big Sky Country is absolutely great! I'm up in woods north of Libby MT. (Grizz area) Best move I ever made from Oregon City!
A Friend here packs a 10mm Glock and very convinced of its capabilities!! others carry .45LC or .44 BlackHawks... I just roll with a 1911 .45acp or .357 Blackhawk...oh and always a 12 gauge in truck!

Good luck, you'll never look back!!!