Moving to grizzly country

[parker83]

Californians scared all the bears away from flathead.

 

[Certaindeaf]

There's a good article on handgun self defense against bears on the Garrett ammo website. Note that the Garrett .44 310 gr. superhardcast Defender load is milder than a standard hunting load, not hotter. This is following the principles that with handgun defense against bears, head shots are essential, and the attacks can happen very fast and necessitate shooting a bear that is already on you. So you need to be able to shoot with one handed and either hand. And rapid follow-up shots can matter a lot more than maximum power.

With a .44 weighing about 50 oz, I can shoot well with either hand with loads up to about 1000 ft lbs. A full ordinary hunting load is normally 1100 to 1200. For those I need two hands to be able to do reasonably fast follow up shots. The HSM .44 mag Bear load is about 1000. The Garrett Defender is even milder, about 800 - 900. I'd also feel comfortable with a hot-loaded .44 special such as the Grizzly 265 gr wide Flat nose. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the hot Buffalo Boar loads for self defense, as I would not be able to control these well enough with one hand for follow up shots. Even with the big heavy revolvers I like.

I hear you. Back when I lived in Montana I packed a 4" M29 and sometimes a .3" .44 Bulldog, both loaded with a home cast 320gr Lee SWC.
I carried both of those guns concealed for many years in different states and cities too.

 

[OldBroad44]

Thanks, Martini_Up. Useful. That chart shows two good 10 mm bear loads, the hottest being the 200 gr. at 750 ft lbs. The Buffalo Bore .357 Outdoorsman is 180 gr. and 783 ft lbs. A trivial difference. The 10 mm bullet is slightly fatter but more rounded. So I'll revise my opinion and say that the 10 mm is capable of matching the .357 mag for bear defense.

But revolver people don't usually talk about .357 for bear defense. Most talk about .44 mag or bigger and 1000 ft lbs or more. However, I'd be comfy with a hot .44 special for bear defense, say 600 ft lbs, right back down in the 10 mm range.

 

[The Heretic]

AK slay capitalist bear same as russian bear

So does a .30-30

 

[The Heretic]

Just to clear up some erroneous opinions on the ballistics of the 10mm, here are the specs of one mfg...


View attachment 571592

If you mean the highlighted load - 135 grain light projectile.

Good for humans, not so much for a heavy boned, muscular 600+ pound irate brown bear that has a tendency for .44 magnum slugs to bounce off their skull.

For that kind of animal, you want heavy projectiles that will penetrate, break bones, etc. - not a lightweight high velocity projectile.

 

[OldBroad44]

If you mean the highlighted load - 135 grain light projectile.

Good for humans, not so much for a heavy boned, muscular 600+ pound irate brown bear that has a tendency for .44 magnum slugs to bounce off their skull.

For that kind of animal, you want heavy projectiles that will penetrate, break bones, etc. - not a lightweight high velocity projectile.

No. Not the hi-lighted line. Look further down the chart at the 200 and 230 grain wide flat nose gas check. Those are the bear loads. And those are, indeed, very comparable to .357 mag bear loads.

 

[The Heretic]

No. Not the hi-lighted line. Look further down the chart at the 200 and 230 grain wide flat nose gas check. Those are the bear loads. And those are, indeed, very comparable to .357 mag bear loads.

Comparable in energy (kinetic) ft. lbs., but there is also the physics of momentum. Momentum has more to do with penetration than kinetic energy does. A projectile with more mass will penetrate dense tissue (especially bone). This is why most hunters who hunt heavy boned animals (especially dangerous ones) use loads with projectiles that have more mass. Sectional density counts too.

The 10mm hot loads with projectiles that have more mass are not that much more powerful than a +P .45 ACP load. But their sectional density is higher, so they will probably penetrate better.

There is no magic bullet, but a person should consider more than just two numbers (velocity, energy) when considering loads/chamberings. There is also the mass, sectional density and the construction of the projectile to consider.

The 10mm has the advantage of being capable of using significantly heavier projectiles than most .357 mag loads. I would not put it in the same category of .44 mag loads from a 4" revolver, but I think it is better than the 10mm.

That said, there is the case I read of once (years ago) where a couple of guys fishing, brown bear attacks one, the other pulls out a .44 magnum and shoots the bear in the back of the head - six times. All six bullets "bounce" off the bear's skull - bear's skulls, especially brown bears, are very thick.

 

[bbbass]

500S&W

 

[Savage Jav]

So does a .30-30

Yep pretty dang similar ballistics. Its funny when i bring this up to other hunting buddies they dismiss it because the ak shoots it

 

[RedRover]

reminds me of this

Damn, now I know where they get the saying "nimble like a cat". That bubblegumer was fast like a ninja.

 

[djharteloo]

Me and the wife plan on doing some camping in nw Montana this summer and I'll be bringing a marlin 1894 in .44 mag and my glock 20. Both with underwood hard cast loads.

 

[Howard1955]

This looks interesting.

 

[CountryGent]

This looks interesting.

Looks interesting. Reminds me of one of the wackier arms in our battery:



It is a three-shot 12-gauge. The tax was much less obnoxious ($5), but the recoil is ... a trifle unpleasant.

 

[IOM]

 

[solv3nt]

44AMT.

 

[Alexx1401]

reminds me of this

LOL, that was one pissed off kitty

 

[CountryGent]

44AMT.

Classic big bore. I've been told that when properly used it can even remove fingerpints:

If one does not wish to go with the proprietary cartridge, I've found this one a good piece thus far:

 

[Rudedog]

I lived in Montana for most of my life and a Ruger Blackhawk was my hiking companion. Sometimes I took a 30-30 even when mountain climbing. I ran into grizzlies above timber line. Today I would prefer the .45 Colt with a stout load. I had a Marlin guide gun but never carried it. I liked my K98. The shotgun is the ticket for the dark thicket! Always full stock, rifle sights and a sling.

 

[OldBroad44]

If 6 rounds of .44 mag "bounced off" a bears skull--
Did they recover the dead bear and find six hits? How, if they all bounced off the bear presumably didnt die and ran off. At which point I wonder whether any shots hit the bear at all.

If bear actually was recovered and had six gouges where bullets deflected off skull, betcha the bullets were HPs or round nosed.

 

[Certaindeaf]

If 6 rounds of .44 mag "bounced off" a bears skull--
Did they recover the dead bear and find six hits? How, if they all bounced off the bear presumably didnt die and ran off. At which point I wonder whether any shots hit the bear at all.

If bear actually was recovered and had six gouges where bullets deflected off skull, betcha the bullets were HPs or round nosed.

If 6 rounds of .44 mag "bounced off" a bears skull--
Did they recover the dead bear and find six hits? How, if they all bounced off the bear presumably didnt die and ran off. At which point I wonder whether any shots hit the bear at all.

If bear actually was recovered and had six gouges where bullets deflected off skull, betcha the bullets were HPs or round nosed.

Lol, no kidding. You could shoot a lifetime's worth of moose with a Keith load from nose to butthole and never recover a slug.