More Target Shooting Trouble in the forest...

[nwslopoke]

That's a big assumption believing revenue will be spent as promised.

 

[RVTECH]

Sounds like a reasonable salary for an additional patrol officer.

One additional patrol officer? In the Deschutes National Forest alone it would take 100 additional officers to even begin to get to all the available areas of recreational shooting.

 

[Cogs]

Some of the Pittman–Robertson Act revenue should be used to cover this.

I'm not so sure we can apply or receive funding through the Pittman Roberson Act. Their requirements don't quite fit with the kind of stuff we're doing. I'm not too interested in trying to develop and full blown public range, at this point. The simple lane improvements we're doing are a lot less hassel, simple guildlines, unmanned and, I think, better for us. I'll follow up more on it and hope to talk with someone in the know.

On November 21, 2013, Rep. Robert E. Latta (R, OH-5) introduced an omnibus bill called the Sportsmen's Heritage And Recreational Enhancement Act of 2013 (H.R. 3590; 113th Congress).[12][13] Title II of that bill, the Target Practice and Marksmanship Training Support Act, would amend the Pittman-Robertson Wildlife Restoration Act to: (1) authorize a state to pay up to 90% of the costs of acquiring land for, expanding, or constructing a public target range;.... The bill passed the House of Representatives on February 5, 2014.

 

[Member 34319]

Baby steps.

Unless you know of a donor willing to assist.

I see the lack of faith in government and general disdain for all things change. That's my biggest hurdle I face doing what I do with TNL.

One thing I hope I can implant is the thought that your only looking at this from one side.

Think of what the agencies see.

A growing amount of recreational shooters in the woods. No revenue being made to help their efforts. No magical help from federal resources. An unwilling group of people to want things to change. A general lack of trust for anything they do. The political aspect of the rights behind firearms. Growing amounts of garbage being left in the sites used primarily by recreational shooters. The fact alone that it is a dirty recreational activity, pick up your bullets lately? This list is growing...

I'll leave it at that for a while.

 

[RVTECH]

I'm not too interested in trying to develop and full blown public range, at this point. The simple lane improvements we're doing are a lot less hassel, simple guildlines, unmanned and, I think, better for us.

I agree - neither would I for that matter but I keep reading about 'lane improvements' - Is this for established ranges or just areas in the woods that have become more popular for shooting? I think I am missing something here.

 

[Cogs]

I agree - neither would I for that matter but I keep reading about 'lane improvements' - Is this for established ranges or just areas in the woods that have become more popular for shooting? I think I am missing something here.

The lanes we helped to develop are in this thread...

North Fork Wolf Creek Shooting Lanes

We're also working to drop in a couple more nearby.

 

[Koda]

I'm not too interested in trying to develop and full blown public range, at this point. The simple lane improvements we're doing are a lot less hassel, simple guildlines, unmanned and, I think, better for us. I'll follow up more on it and hope to talk with someone in the know.

what is the difference between a full blown public range and the lanes that have been developed? Isnt the new lanes a shooting range?

 

[Koda]

Currently, most recreational activities in the forest either have large donor systems in place, or create some sort of revenue from permit sales or enforcement fines.

The Northwest Forest Pass (NWFP) system is majorly corrupt and an abuse of the system it intended to be. It was originally sold to the public on the idea that the public pays for a pass and the money is used to maintain hiking trails, but in practice only maybe 5% has been used and most of that 5% to apply for grant funding to maintain trails. Some of the money is used for NWFP enforcement which the 9th circuit proved unconstitutional. Most of the trail work is done by volunteer hiking groups and their personal donations, they get no funding from the NWFP. I would like to find out ways to raise funds similarly like the hiking groups do, clean up events, donations etc. The more new shooters that become aware of TNL thru flyers and public land etiquette classes at LG stores etc. the more new shooters will donate and join the cause. Its a very effective strategy with hikers, ATV, equestrians, snowmobile groups. New shooters will see first hand a return on their donation, rather than more rules, restrictions and bureaucracy from getting the state involved with shooting permits. TNL is, compared to these other groups, in its infancy.

 

[Cogs]

what is the difference between a full blown public range and the lanes that have been developed? Isn't the new lanes a shooting range?

Yes and no. I like to call it a range but ODF prefers the term improved lanes. Might be because of the difference between one that's manned and maintained vs one that isn't.

The full blown range would be open only certain hours, have RSO's, an organization under contract with the forest agency to operate/maintain it, be regulated, and all that.

The ones we helped with are simply places where shooting has happened for quite some time but were cluttered with stumps, weeds and dry grass. They had all the right features for a good safe shooting lane but were a fire hazard to shoot in. So, in the name of 'Fire Prevention', ODF okay'd an improvement as a test site and foot the bill with fire prevention funds. They are always open and are dependent on the users to keep them in good shape. So far so good, in the first year. For the most part, trash is minimal and kept within the lanes and no fires. Lots of people looking after them.

It has not only improved fire safety, but has improved personal safety and has fostered stewardship, ownership and proactive involvement from those who use it. Now that they are so popular and well maintained, ODF would like to have more put in. This time, shooters will need to provide the funding and most of the volunteer work.

They have become a shooters first choice place to go shooting.

 

[Koda]

The full blown range would be open only certain hours, have RSO's, an organization under contract with the forest agency to operate/maintain it, be regulated, and all that.

ah, got it. Makes sense also why your not too interested in developing a full range... agree. I like the idea of user maintained and to expand more lanes.

 

[CoastRange57]

So those sited and ticketed for simply driving into Brown's Camp area for not having a proper ODOT regulated helmet or a proper OHV permit and a truck full of dirt bikes isn't the same thing? How did the sheriff know they were going to actually unload and ride their motorcycles?

Maybe the need to ask that question of the deputy or his / her sergeant. If you are not unloaded then pretty tough case to make. It might be that you are showing intent at that time as all the equipment is in your possession in the back of the pickup. A target on a stump 100 yards away is hardly in your "possession". This is why I like my pocket camera that records video and audio of such interactions.

 

[CoastRange57]

Baby steps.

Unless you know of a donor willing to assist.

I see the lack of faith in government and general disdain for all things change. That's my biggest hurdle I face doing what I do with TNL.

One thing I hope I can implant is the thought that your only looking at this from one side.

Think of what the agencies see.

A growing amount of recreational shooters in the woods. No revenue being made to help their efforts. No magical help from federal resources. An unwilling group of people to want things to change. A general lack of trust for anything they do. The political aspect of the rights behind firearms. Growing amounts of garbage being left in the sites used primarily by recreational shooters. The fact alone that it is a dirty recreational activity, pick up your bullets lately? This list is growing...

I'll leave it at that for a while.

This is a pretty good summary of this thread so far. As with any group of people when you get them together and discuss items that the stakeholders are passionate about, throw in the potential for additional government regulation and fees being charged and you are going to have a diverse amount of opinions and ideas. This is a group of very smart people and they have some great ideas. The baby steps is a very good analogy, you should expect it to take 12 months to organize your group and develop your positions and ideas and another 24 to 36 months to work through the government hoops.

To me this seems to be the advent of some type of PAC, or group of people who are avid shooters who need to organize in a group whose SOLE purpose is to address this problem and seek solutions that work for all stakeholders, shooters, government agencies and LE. This group would need to develop positions and ideas and share these with the stakeholders. The group would carefully select their primary spokespersons who are well versed in the subject (Reno 911 ??), who can work with government agencies and LE as partners and not adversaries. This group would need to be somewhat self taxing to start with and be willing to spend some money to start moving the process forward. Develop a structure, dues and contribution levels. There are going to have to be some individuals who will need to pony up $ 100 each or so to get started.

People who have relationships with people in the agencies or LE, or people who speak that language effectively developing specific talk points and problem solution abilities. Recognizing there are huge differences in the agencies that are responsible for these areas, what works for Browns Camp and areas under ODF control is not going to work at all in the USFS world. Starting off where the problem is the greatest such as Browns Camp, Wolf Creek and others and under one agency would at least give a blue print for future expansions. Addressing it on an area / problem specific basis is going to be easier and more effective.

Biting off too much in the start and trying to reinvent the wheel causes many groups to lose , and limits the effectiveness of the advocacy process. Being proactive and admitting there is a problem and then offering to work to find common solutions to those problems before the government agencies are forced to take some kind of action is much preferable than having them deal with the process by locking off the areas, which is the easiest way for them to deal with it, just see all that the USFS has restricted access to in Eastern and Central Oregon.

Examples are of how special "districts or areas" could be established where it would be fairly easy to set fees and permit usage. This directly puts the cost on the users of that "district or permit entry only" area. Identify the problem areas, establish regulated use areas, set the rules, permit fees and penalties. Start with the problem areas at first and expand as needed. Heavy use areas and then have general rules for larger areas.

 

[Timbertodd]

I am required to buy a daily or yearly pass to fish Hagg lake or pay to park at one of several spots on the Wilson river or Trask. This money goes towards upkeep and improvements. I would buy a pass to shoot in the forest. I am not saying I would like it but I would purchase it knowing the funds were going towards improvement and, upkeep and enforcement. I am curious how many passes are sold at Hagg lake each year. On another note Bill/Brian is there an address to mail a donation to TNL on the website? I know I have Bill's address in an older email somewhere. This could be helpful for those not wanting to use a card.

 

[CoastRange57]

I am required to buy a daily or yearly pass to fish Hagg lake or pay to park at one of several spots on the Wilson river or Trask. This money goes towards upkeep and improvements. I would buy a pass to shoot in the forest. I am not saying I would like it but I would purchase it knowing the funds were going towards improvement and, upkeep and enforcement. I am curious how many passes are sold at Hagg lake each year. On another note Bill/Brian is there an address to mail a donation to TNL on the website? I know I have Bill's address in an older email somewhere. This could be helpful for those not wanting to use a card.

Just paid my $ 7 to take our two kayaks up there for some paddling and fishing this morning. Cheap recreation and a great spot to go.

 

[CoastRange57]

Currently, most recreational activities in the forest either have large donor systems in place, or create some sort of revenue from permit sales or enforcement fines.

We literally don't have much.

So when between a rock and a hard place, these departments are tight on funds and resources as is. Demanding they simply just do it with what they have isn't going to work. There is a growing amount of recreational shooters using the woods. There is no growth for our agencies.

Excellent commentary. The growth of recreational users is huge. Shooters are a small piece of that pie. The expotential growth of users far out paces the growth of both caretakers and LEO. That balance went out the door a long time ago. Unless the shooting group organizes and advocates for regulation and is willing to pay at some level, then you will see areas closed off to use due to the negative impacts. Just look at USFS lands.

 

[Cogs]

I am required to buy a daily or yearly pass to fish Hagg lake or pay to park at one of several spots on the Wilson river or Trask. This money goes towards upkeep and improvements. I would buy a pass to shoot in the forest. I am not saying I would like it but I would purchase it knowing the funds were going towards improvement and, upkeep and enforcement. I am curious how many passes are sold at Hagg lake each year. On another note Bill/Brian is there an address to mail a donation to TNL on the website? I know I have Bill's address in an older email somewhere. This could be helpful for those not wanting to use a card.

Only my address for now Todd. We should be establishing a PO Box soon and make that known on the website. Thank you!

 

[CoastRange57]

If such a group were to form, I would offer my 30 years of marketing expertise pro bono. Perception and positioning are very important in this process.

Late to the date but what is this TNL being referenced ?

 

[Cogs]

To me this seems to be the advent of some type of PAC, or group of people who are avid shooters who need to organize in a group whose SOLE purpose is to address this problem and seek solutions that work for all stakeholders, shooters, government agencies and LE. This group would need to develop positions and ideas and share these with the stakeholders. The group would carefully select their primary spokespersons who are well versed in the subject (Reno 911 ??), who can work with government agencies and LE as partners and not adversaries. This group would need to be somewhat self taxing to start with and be willing to spend some money to start moving the process forward. Develop a structure, dues and contribution levels. There are going to have to be some individuals who will need to pony up $ 100 each or so to get started.

Yes, CoastRange, I've been working on that idea for several years now and finally bit the bullet and started up Trash No Land as a nonprofit organization to focus on finding and implementing solutions that work for all. @Reno911 is our Vice President and @citizen a is our Treasure/Board of Directors (and we're building the Board with good dedicated people). It is quite the challenge but I like a good challenge!

Love your post!

Bill

 

[Timbertodd]

Just paid my $ 7 to take our two kayaks up there for some paddling and fishing this morning. Cheap recreation and a great spot to go.

I but my season pass each year. Its nice that the lake is open year round now.

 

[CoastRange57]

Yes, CoastRange, I've been working on that idea for several years now and finally bit the bullet and started up Trash No Land as a nonprofit organization to focus on finding and implementing solutions that work for all. @Reno911 is our Vice President and @citizen a is our Treasure/Board of Directors (and we're building the Board with good dedicated people). It is quite the challenge but I like a good challenge!

Love your post!

Bill

Nice. Congratulations on stepping up.

Marketing tip # 1. Always use the full name of your group even when talking with others. Builds a brand and makes it easier for simpletons like me to engage with.

What is your website and Facebook page ?