Monolithic bullets for big game hunting?

[Koda]

Anyone favor using monolithic all copper bullets for big game hunting?

Ive always used lead core bullets but now that Im getting into reloading Im looking closer at copper monolithic's and from what I see they are an improvement over lead core. Ive recovered few bullets over the years, I have one lead core sample with a perfect mushroom and another one only the base survived. It seems the effectiveness of weight retention with lead core bullets is dependent on shot placement (all other things being equal) but Id like to know real world opinions on copper monolithic's hunting big game (deer/elk)?

Arguments for or against copper monolithic's?

Read More

 

[Spitpatch]

If I held two bullets in my hand, both recovered from dead animals (we can assume), I would not be overly concerned about their appearance once they had (apparently and efficiently) done their job.

I have tried monolithic bullets in a number of calibers, and none made it to the field. In all cases, a lead-core bullet that I had extensive experience with (in the field as a reliable killer) was more agreeable to accuracy and velocity pursuits from the loading bench to the shooting bench and chronograph. There is also a concern (not entirely solved yet) of copper accumulation in the barrel. I do intend to keep trying them.

"Textbook mushrooms" (preferably symmetrical and with petals arranged as if from a florist) make tidy magazine ads. They are not a requirement for killing game reliably.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Use lead bullets because California sucks.

 

[Koda]

So im not concerned with appearance or mushroom shape, just wondering about weight retention and penetration?

 

[BigGame]

Koda,
I've exchanged some messages with you on this before, but I'll add here for discussion. I've tried several monolithics. First, they are not all the same design and do not all perform the same. Currently I'm shooting Hammer Bullets which are designed to shed the nose into 3 petals leaving the shank to penetrate deeply. I've been really pleased with them on terminal performance and accuracy.

In general I want to see pass-through penetration with a good wound channel all the way through and I want the bullet to perform reliably. The Hammer Bullets have done this for me. The performance window stated by the company is down to 1800 fps (you don't need an upper performance metric as monolithics do not explode).

 

[Koda]

@BigGame
yeah, Im looking at the Hammer bullets based on our conversation. A quick note: I started this thread before we PMd when I was considering buying the TTSX bullets. This thread didnt get any replies and quickly sank till today, I cant recall the other thread where I asked about the Hammer bullets.

 

[hawmanai]

Read one study where they x-rayed animal bullet wounds which showed lead splatter with some lead entering bloodstream.

So using all copper bullets would eliminate any lead that might be ingested.

 

[BPOR11]

Lead carries energy better then copper.
If you are shooting critters that birds may eat, then you may want to weigh the risk.
If you are shooting an animal that you are going to eat, then you can mitigate your risk by cutting out damaged tissue.

 

[belshawelk]

Yes barns LRX. Perfect on an elk last year. For big calibers with lots of evergy unless you are shooting a Partition or something I think its the best bullet I have found.

 

[Koda]

Yes barns LRX. Perfect on an elk last year. For big calibers with lots of evergy unless you are shooting a Partition or something I think its the best bullet I have found.

View attachment 978360

Thats exactly what Im looking for in this thread. That looks like near perfect expansion and weight retention. Thank you for sharing that.

 

[BPOR11]

Why does nobody ever talk about copper toxicity?

 

[BPOR11]

Maybe it's just welding toxicity?

 

[BPOR11]

Looking for legitimate science

 

[P7M13]

Looking for legitimate science

Legitimate science on the 'net is out there, but there's even more BS and woo-woo new age crud.
You can go look up article references for NEJM, AJM, BMJ, etc, at your local library and have them brought in to read.

Medicine and health

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z A Advances in Nutrition Aesthetic Surgery Journal Aesthetic Surgery Journal Open Forum Age and Ageing Alco

academic.oup.com

You'll also want to see as many articles as possible, as peer review (and suppression) are alive and well in medicine as well as many other sciences.

Copper is not as toxic as lead, unless you are a marine invertebrate. Many metals cause nervous system damage.
That said, not everyone responds to metals the same way. YMMV.

 

[Koda]

Im aware there are many out there that dont believe in lead poisoning but my only interest in this post was to learn what performs better. There is some solid (pun intended) evidence that copper monolithics are out performing lead core bullets in weight retention, I dont know why any hunter would intentionally want to choose a lesser performing bullet.

Everything You Want to Know About Lead vs. Copper Bullets | Muley Freak |

The Boulle Ever wondered where the word bullet comes from. The word is from the Middle French (period from the 14th to the early 17th...

muleyfreak.com

 

[belshawelk]

Thats exactly what Im looking for in this thread. That looks like near perfect expansion and weight retention. Thank you for sharing that.

Entered the front shoulder quartering away. Found it against the rear quarter hide. It was at 372 yards. Hit like a freight train and made the wonderful whack sound. Knocked all four legs out from under. This is from a .30 Nosler hitting at at about 2500 fps and 2900 fpe

 

[Koda]

Entered the front shoulder quartering away. Found it against the rear quarter hide. It was at 372 yards. Hit like a freight train and made the wonderful whack sound. Knocked all four legs out from under. This is from a .30 Nosler hitting at at about 2500 fps and 2900 fpe

This is a good testemony, not many lead cores hold up like that... The closest Ive heard hunters tell about are Partition type bullets that penetrate full lengths.

 

[belshawelk]

I have lots of history with elk and hunters. I have been around lots and lots of elk shot. I've hunted lots with a 300Wm and am not a fan of smaller rounds (except the .28 Nosler and maybe a few of the new stuff like 300PRC and the 300RUM and of course .338 are fine. I quit prescribing to the smaller rounds "just hit the vitals". I have seen way to many elk shot with 7mm or 06 or others hit really well,and not get recovered. I do not shoot stupid long distances. I am only about energy at the animal. Speed does nothing for me. its a factor yes but its is not what kills. Period. Only energy does. I wanted a round that I could break both shoulders or one when if passes through the vitals or of I just want a shoulder shot. I also wanted something for bears. I believe in breaking down an animal not chasing a blood trail. I sent my gun in for load development and had these LRX made up. Killed two elk and neither took a step.

I know there are snipers out there and 6.5 guys and shoot the heart and stuff and good for you. Things happen, and I owe it kill and retrieve ad quick as possible any animal I point a gun at.

haters come at me, But I lost one elk I hit perfect. We found him almost 1.5 miles away and 2 days later with his heart and lungs in shreds. Worst day off my hunting life.

I think the coppers are just about perfect. Not saying others aren't good and I really like Accubonds, Partitions, Hammars and others but if you want a sleek bullet its a copper for me.

 

[BigGame]

There's another aspect of monolithics that is worth noting. Because they penetrate so well, you can shoot a lighter than 'standard' bullet. The lighter bullet in turn allows you to push it to higher velocities. That's not always possible with lead cores because pushing them much above 300,000 RPMs can cause jackets to separate. The small-and-fast style of loading can have nice benefits in terms of flat trajectories and you still have excellent terminal performance. I'm currently pushing an 88gr Hammer Hunter at 3,300 fps from my 6 Creedmoor with a 21" barrel; the RPMs are about 340,000. I'm getting ready to try a 131gr Hammer Hunter in my 7RemMag that should reach about 3,350 fps. And I've noted many going well beyond this and pushing even smaller bullets in cartridges like the 28 Nosler up to around 3,700 fps. This type of loading really opens up a lot of possibilities. The old rules of thumb really don't apply anymore.

 

[Spitpatch]

The original question asked about "hunting big game (deer/elk)". Some chose to bypass the former, concentrating entirely on the latter.
I certainly hope that there is enough experience (perhaps combined) here to know that bullet choice for these disparate species may be (and probably should be) just as divergent. What works very well on elk may be a very poor choice for deer, and vice versa.

The OP kindly clarified his concerns and goals away from "appearance" of the finished bullet and toward "weight retention and penetration" : certainly admirable characteristics to wish for...in SOME applications. In SOME applications, weight retention and penetration are NOT so admirable. Weight retention and penetration certainly are in NO WAY the litmus-test indicator of a "greater performing" bullet (especially toward a stated diverse spectrum of game).

The stark difference in bullet requirements (to KILL EFFECTIVELY: the ONLY measure of bullet performance) between the two species of the inquiry is uniquely convenient to us, and literally "right out our front door" (assuming a portion of responders here are near the coast). Elk here often achieve proportions resembling boxcars. Deer here frequently resemble the stature of dogs that might be welcome in an apartment setting. More Eastern pursuits may narrow the disparity (think Rocky Mountain Elk and big Muleys) between the species, but it remains quite significant. Bullet choice should reflect the difference.

In these discussions, one may expect proponents of "energy" as a primary killing factor. It is certainly a factor. It is certainly a major one. Very nearly as predictable is the very same devotee to energy touting "penetration" as a desirable quality. But what happens when penetration is so "good" that it leaves a significant amount of energy "on the table" (using that energy for flight beyond the animal; perhaps to kill a small unfortunate sapling in the way of its merry journey on its misdirected reserves of energy)? Valuable energy has been spent in activity that does nothing toward a kill. Penetration here has operated in cross-purposes to energy toward the goal.

This phenomena is quickly realized by any 10 year-old experienced in shooting sage-rats: Making the transition from his Benjamin .22 air rifle to a "real .22", he expects his kill ratio to skyrocket. Time after time, he eventually recognizes that the air rifle is a far better killer (within its range). Those little gophers are SMACKED by the flat-nosed pellet (usually lodging inside them) and expire quickly. The round-nosed .22 zips right through 'em, and they often make their hole.

The earliest (and perhaps still the best) retained-weight bullet design is the Nosler Partition. Hunters with notable experience with this bullet will almost to a man (person?) relate that they have come to expect less of a "shock-kill" phenomena (as compared to a conventional bullet) when the Nosler arrives in a ribcage. They willingly trade this off in favor of deeper bone breakage should the shot be not so ideal. Very few of the Nosler adherents would pick that bullet to kill dog-sized Blacktails. The bullet's qualities would actually HAMPER it toward the ONLY measure of bullet performance: an effective kill. Penetration? Check. Weight retention? Check. Dead deer? ....Maybe, but a good ol' Core-Lokt would save some searching for him. See "gopher" above.

Jacket separation as a result of spin? I suspect the number of hunters who can reliably document this happening to them might hope to approach an army of one. Humans suffering from lead poisoning as a result of eating big game might amount similarly. This discussion is better conducted in the realm of actual repeated experience. My hunting experience bears no repeating here for frequent visitors to this site.

Again, I retain an open mind toward monolithic bullets. My experience with them in the field is admittedly nil. My experience with them in numerous rifles and calibers on the bench and behind a chronograph and target is extensive. My experience behind a cleaning rod as a result of what they leave in my guns is likewise extensive. But I will keep trying them, because for certain applications (and specific species), they JUST MIGHT grant the best of all worlds: Expansion, Penetration, Energy DELIVERY on game, organ/structure damage, and exceptional accuracy; resulting in an effective kill.

But right now, I enjoy more conventional bullets that DO accomplish all that.