MOA Accuracy vs Investment to Get There

[osprey]

Its a proven fact that many guys think they have sub moa rifles, when in fact, they dont. Shoot some 10 shot groups and get back to me on this.

It is perfectly acceptable to call a rifle moa if you qualify it with the number of shots. Many lighter hunting rifles will shoot moa for a 3 or 5 shot group, but start to walk a bit with the barrel heat induced by longer shot strings. To me this is perfectly acceptable for a big game hunting rifle. Now for varrmints or bench games a rifle that maintains moa over a longer string of shots would certainly be desirable. A ten shot moa group (no cooling in between shots) in a sub 8.5# hunting rifle is a fairly rare beast.

 

[CLT65]

I've found that getting a rifle to shoot 1moa @ 100 yards is not terribly hard to do, but certainly not so common as some say. There's also a world of difference between 1 moa and 1/2 moa, and a universe of difference to 1/4 moa. It's a little like saying "My new car will do 100 mph; what do I need to do to it to get to 200 mph?

As to skill, anyone who says they are capable of consistently shooting 1/4 moa is either a world-class marksman, or seriously prone to exaggeration.

 

[rangerstx4]

Ammo makes all the difference in the world of accuracy. If you have a solid rifle and scope, ammo brings it home. Below are two 5 shot groups, both factory ammo in a Proof Carbon barrel. Same gun, optic, etc, but huge difference w 20gr of lead. And the results are completely opposite in another build with the same style of barrel.
140gr Hornady

120gr Hornady

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Ammo makes all the difference in the world of accuracy. If you have a solid rifle and scope, ammo brings it home. Below are two 5 shot groups, both factory ammo in a Proof Carbon barrel. Same gun, optic, etc, but huge difference w 20gr of lead. And the results are completely opposite in another build with the same style of barrel.
140gr Hornady
View attachment 535544
120gr Hornady
View attachment 535545

A good example of why i dont shoot factory ammo in my rifles. Chances are, you could make that 140gr bullet shoot real well, if you rolled your own.

 

[Ruger Rich]

Ummm, don't purchase a "budget hunting rifle" expecting fantastic accuracy?

At least one budget rifle worked for me, a Ruger American

 

[bsa1917hunter]

At least one budget rifle worked for me, a Ruger American

A lot of "budget rifles" are working and shooting great with fantastic accuracy, for a lot of guys. Check out the recent thread on the TC compass a member posted here. I probably shouldn't show anymore of my targets, but I have a few "budget rifles" that shoot bughole groups as well.. A lot of these guys saying you have to spend thousands on a rifle to get it to shoot good, are not really on board with what modern technology and advancements some of these manufactures incorporate into their rifles. Now days we have Ruger American's, TC Ventures and compass, Savage (just about any savage rifle), Tikka's, Etc. etc.. A lot of them shoot great right out of the box, then if you have the know how, you can fine tune them to damn decent shooters. I won't condemn those that want to spend their money on a really expensive rifle, and I'm hoping they don't look down their noses at me for buying a good shooting Savage or the like and possibly out shooting their multi thousand dollar rifle. That's just how the cookie crumbles sometimes...

 

[bsa1917hunter]

How do you decide what accuracy is worth cost wise in a particular rifle? For example if you purchase a budget hunting rifle and it achieves 1 MOA out of the box with an ammo it likes, how do you decide how much to spend to cut that down to 1/2 MOA, 1/4 MOA or even one ragged hole?

Lets get down to the brass tacks and answer your question. "How do I decide how much to spend to cut that down to 1/2 moa, 1/4 moa or even one ragged hole?"
This is what I do to any rifle I get my hands on:

1. Glass bed the barreled action to the stock. Cost: Approx $5.00
2. Use proper mounts that securely hold the scope in alignment with the axis of the bore + lapping rings and possibly bedding the mounts to the receiver of the action: $50.00 (which I would have paid for anyway, so cost of rings and mounts is a moot point).
3. Adjust or fine tune trigger: $00
4. Replace trigger, if factory trigger is garbage. My Stevens 200 for example: $100.00 (Timney). My m1917's: $55.00 (Timney)
5. Freefloat barrel: $00
6. Pressure bed or full length neutral bed the barrel, if freefloat is not cutting it: $5.00
7. Ensure locking lugs are all making proper contact inside the action: $00
8. Fine tuning handload. No cost except for a small amount of time.

This list is basically just a checklist of what I do to every rifle I buy. In the last 20 years of buying rifles, I have not had 1 rifle that shot worse than 1 moa 3 shot groups consistently after performing the work on this list. However, I am very selective with what I do buy in regards to condition of the rifle. The bore has to look good (nice sharp lands and grooves, good clean chamber and good crown). If it looks like it's had the snot shot out of it, I won't waste my hard earned money. Of course, this is in dealing with used rifles. A new rifle will have to measure up as well. I look them all over with a fine tooth comb. I've actually asked the store clerks to get me another rifle so I can compare them and pick the better looking of the 2 or 3, if need be. Recently I bought 3 rifles and entered them into a "1 moa all day long" challenge, just to prove that just because it's a "budget" rifle, it can still be accurate. Here are the results, just for chits and giggles. I'm also listing weight, as that was brought up again. As some posters have said, light rifles (sub 8.5 pounds) are a rare beast if they shoot moa 10 shot groups. Or rifles under 8.5 pounds, "start to walk a bit after 3 or 5 shots"...:

Savage 12FV 6.5 Creedmoor. Cost $384.00. Cost of SWFA SS scope: $300.00. Weight: 8.75 pounds:



Stevens 200 22-250. Cost $300.00 out the door. Cost of Weaver cv16 scope: $100.00. Weight: 6.5 pounds:



Savage model 10 .223 Rem. Traded approx $340.00 worth of stuff to get it. Cost of Burris MSR scope: $200.00. Weight 7.25 pounds:



My best suggestion on how to cut your group size in half, shoot less shots per group . All of these rifles shown here will shoot much better 5 and 3 shot groups. 5 shots into 1/2 moa: That's likely. 3 shots into 1/4 moa: That would be stretching it. I only reserve that right to my AR10 308:

 

[arakboss]

Lets get down to the brass tacks and answer your question. "How do I decide how much to spend to cut that down to 1/2 moa, 1/4 moa or even one ragged hole?"
This is what I do to any rifle I get my hands on:

1. Glass bed the barreled action to the stock. Cost: Approx $5.00
2. Use proper mounts that securely hold the scope in alignment with the axis of the bore + lapping rings and possibly bedding the mounts to the receiver of the action: $50.00 (which I would have paid for anyway, so cost of rings and mounts is a moot point).
3. Adjust or fine tune trigger: $00
4. Replace trigger, if factory trigger is garbage. My Stevens 200 for example: $100.00 (Timney). My m1917's: $55.00 (Timney)
5. Freefloat barrel: $00
6. Pressure bed or full length neutral bed the barrel, if freefloat is not cutting it: $5.00
7. Ensure locking lugs are all making proper contact inside the action: $00
8. Fine tuning handload. No cost except for a small amount of time.

This list is basically just a checklist of what I do to every rifle I buy. In the last 20 years of buying rifles, I have not had 1 rifle that shot worse than 1 moa 3 shot groups consistently after performing the work on this list. However, I am very selective with what I do buy in regards to condition of the rifle. The bore has to look good (nice sharp lands and grooves, good clean chamber and good crown). If it looks like it's had the snot shot out of it, I won't waste my hard earned money. Of course, this is in dealing with used rifles. A new rifle will have to measure up as well. I look them all over with a fine tooth comb. I've actually asked the store clerks to get me another rifle so I can compare them and pick the better looking of the 2 or 3, if need be. Recently I bought 3 rifles and entered them into a "1 moa all day long" challenge, just to prove that just because it's a "budget" rifle, it can still be accurate. Here are the results, just for chits and giggles. I'm also listing weight, as that was brought up again. As some posters have said, light rifles (sub 8.5 pounds) are a rare beast if they shoot moa 10 shot groups. Or rifles under 8.5 pounds, "start to walk a bit after 3 or 5 shots"...:

Savage 12FV 6.5 Creedmoor. Cost $384.00. Cost of SWFA SS scope: $300.00. Weight: 8.75 pounds:
View attachment 535803
View attachment 535804

Stevens 200 22-250. Cost $300.00 out the door. Cost of Weaver cv16 scope: $100.00. Weight: 6.5 pounds:
View attachment 535805
View attachment 535806

Savage model 10 .223 Rem. Traded approx $340.00 worth of stuff to get it. Cost of Burris MSR scope: $200.00. Weight 7.25 pounds:
View attachment 535807
View attachment 535808

My best suggestion on how to cut your group size in half, shoot less shots per group . All of these rifles shown here will shoot much better 5 and 3 shot groups. 5 shots into 1/2 moa: That's likely. 3 shots into 1/4 moa: That would be stretching it. I only reserve that right to my AR10 308:
View attachment 535809

Great answer. Thank you!

 

[arakboss]

I've found that getting a rifle to shoot 1moa @ 100 yards is not terribly hard to do, but certainly not so common as some say. There's also a world of difference between 1 moa and 1/2 moa, and a universe of difference to 1/4 moa. It's a little like saying "My new car will do 100 mph; what do I need to do to it to get to 200 mph?

As to skill, anyone who says they are capable of consistently shooting 1/4 moa is either a world-class marksman, or seriously prone to exaggeration.

This was what i was trying to get at. It seems to me, you can get to 1 moa pretty affordably but to get to 1/2 or 1/4 moa will take a bunch of money. So my original question was trying to understand what different people are spending to tighten their groups up to a certain size. I was born cheap and like to shoot many different rifles so I will have to settle for close to 1 moa as a goal for my rifles.

 

[arakboss]

Lets get down to the brass tacks and answer your question. "How do I decide how much to spend to cut that down to 1/2 moa, 1/4 moa or even one ragged hole?"
This is what I do to any rifle I get my hands on:

1. Glass bed the barreled action to the stock. Cost: Approx $5.00
2. Use proper mounts that securely hold the scope in alignment with the axis of the bore + lapping rings and possibly bedding the mounts to the receiver of the action: $50.00 (which I would have paid for anyway, so cost of rings and mounts is a moot point).
3. Adjust or fine tune trigger: $00
4. Replace trigger, if factory trigger is garbage. My Stevens 200 for example: $100.00 (Timney). My m1917's: $55.00 (Timney)
5. Freefloat barrel: $00
6. Pressure bed or full length neutral bed the barrel, if freefloat is not cutting it: $5.00
7. Ensure locking lugs are all making proper contact inside the action: $00
8. Fine tuning handload. No cost except for a small amount of time.

This list is basically just a checklist of what I do to every rifle I buy. In the last 20 years of buying rifles, I have not had 1 rifle that shot worse than 1 moa 3 shot groups consistently after performing the work on this list. However, I am very selective with what I do buy in regards to condition of the rifle. The bore has to look good (nice sharp lands and grooves, good clean chamber and good crown). If it looks like it's had the snot shot out of it, I won't waste my hard earned money. Of course, this is in dealing with used rifles. A new rifle will have to measure up as well. I look them all over with a fine tooth comb. I've actually asked the store clerks to get me another rifle so I can compare them and pick the better looking of the 2 or 3, if need be. Recently I bought 3 rifles and entered them into a "1 moa all day long" challenge, just to prove that just because it's a "budget" rifle, it can still be accurate. Here are the results, just for chits and giggles. I'm also listing weight, as that was brought up again. As some posters have said, light rifles (sub 8.5 pounds) are a rare beast if they shoot moa 10 shot groups. Or rifles under 8.5 pounds, "start to walk a bit after 3 or 5 shots"...:

Savage 12FV 6.5 Creedmoor. Cost $384.00. Cost of SWFA SS scope: $300.00. Weight: 8.75 pounds:
View attachment 535803
View attachment 535804

Stevens 200 22-250. Cost $300.00 out the door. Cost of Weaver cv16 scope: $100.00. Weight: 6.5 pounds:
View attachment 535805
View attachment 535806

Savage model 10 .223 Rem. Traded approx $340.00 worth of stuff to get it. Cost of Burris MSR scope: $200.00. Weight 7.25 pounds:
View attachment 535807
View attachment 535808

My best suggestion on how to cut your group size in half, shoot less shots per group . All of these rifles shown here will shoot much better 5 and 3 shot groups. 5 shots into 1/2 moa: That's likely. 3 shots into 1/4 moa: That would be stretching it. I only reserve that right to my AR10 308:
View attachment 535809

Those are some nice budget shooters you have there. I hope my savage 12fv in 308 shoots close to what you were getting with your 12fv in 6.5. I have a compass in 6.5 which i haven't shot yet either. I am hopeful it will shoot well too. That ar10 of yours shoots like a laser.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Those are some nice budget shooters you have there. I hope my savage 12fv in 308 shoots close to what you were getting with your 12fv in 6.5. I have a compass in 6.5 which i haven't shot yet either. I am hopeful it will shoot well too. That ar10 of yours shoots like a laser.

Like i said in an earlier post. ron here shoots a savage 12fv 308w. His sports an upgraded stock that is a little stiffer than the factory stock. I forgot to add that on my 12FV, i had to stiffen up the forend. This way theres no chance in h that the barrel is going to inadvertently touch the stock at anytime during shooting. Barrel harmonics is key to shooting good groups. A good barrel that is not stressed, should shoot great without walking shots off the target. Also, as for your 12FV 308, a lot of the accuracy will come from how well your load is tuned to your rifle. If you dont hand load, try different types of factory ammo until you find a good one. Im not going to suggest target ammo for hunting. As your op suggested, you are asking about a "hunting rifle". Id look into the Hornady precision hunter loads, as a good starting point. I personally have never found a factory load that shoots better than my handloads. Again, maybe ron will chime in with some experience from shooting his 12fv 308. As for my 308 AR10, I post that 3 shot group as kind of a joke. Its the least accurate AR I own, but i did shoot a 2.5" 5 shot group at 400 yards with that rifle to prove a point to my boss. Thats roughly .6 "MOA" for 5 shots. However, i honestly call it a 1.5 moa shooter. I dont even submit it in the "1 moa all day long" challenge at 24 hr campfire because its not a 1 moa (for 10 shots) rifle. That rifle is accurate, to be sure, but dont be fooled by a single 3 shot group like that one. If you really want to see how accurate you and your rifle are, shoot at least 5 shots per group. To get a much better idea, shoot 10 shot groups. A lot of guys will chase their tails shooting 3 shot groups. You run into what some call a "wondering zero" and they will get those pesky fliers or maybe they are seeing what they call "walking shots, as the barrel heats up", because they havent truly found a good load for their rifle. 10 shots will help to verify your true zero and leave less on the table when searching for accuracy. The reason my first question in this thread was, what do you guys consider "moa". Some guys get it, some dont.

 

[osprey]

I guess it boils down to where you think your time, money and energy are best spent to achieve the results you desire. My game is big game hunting and most of my shooting revolves around that focus. I shoot a lot in field positions and I know my limitations in field conditions. If my rifle will consistantly shoot a 3-5 shot group 1moa or under with no cooling in between shots it is up to the task. If varmints or target shooting at longer distances were my game I would have different criteria for accuracy and would adjust my focus accordingly. bsa you have some fine shooting rifles and the talent to get them up to your standards and I can truly appreciate your dedication and efforts, but I got to tell you your posts come of a bit condescending on this topic. Cheers

 

[CLT65]

This was what i was trying to get at. It seems to me, you can get to 1 moa pretty affordably but to get to 1/2 or 1/4 moa will take a bunch of money. So my original question was trying to understand what different people are spending to tighten their groups up to a certain size. I was born cheap and like to shoot many different rifles so I will have to settle for close to 1 moa as a goal for my rifles.

Ok, I understand. You shouldn't have to settle for 1 moa, if you're lucky. Like a lot of posts before me have said, there are some really accurate off the shelf rifles out there now, for very reasonable prices. All the tips and tricks for accurizing are great too.

One of my most accurate rifles is an old Remington 700 ADL in 22-250. I think it's capable of 1/2 moa, but I don't think I am, consistently. I once sat next to a guy at a range shooting a fancy bench rest gun and let him shoot five rounds through it, and they were well under 1/2". But as we all know, one five round group doesn't mean much. I can consistently do 3/4" @100 yards, and on a good day where everything goes right closer to 1/2". I'm not a benchrest shooter though, and I don't practice all the time. I gave up chasing tiny groups a long time ago.

With some looking around, a little luck, lots of practice, and learning how to do some good basic accurizing correctly, a guy can come up with a heck of a shooter on a budget. Half-minute is totally doable I think. Quarter minute I'm not so sure about, but that's beyond my abilities as a marksman, myself.

Don't take my word for it though. From reading through the other posts, there are a lot of guys here with much more experience and know-how.

 

[bikemutt]

I have a Limited Edition Browning X-bolt target rifle that is by no stretch a budget rifle, I'm even embarrassed at how much I paid for it, but I wanted it. I can honestly say it is now a 1/2 MOA rifle but I had to invest in the one thing I never counted on to get it there: myself.

I could be wrong but I think it's just as hard to become a 1/2 MOA shooter as it can be costly to turn a 1 MOA rifle into a 1/2 MOA rifle.

 

[Inquisitor]

Depends on what you are shooting at and how far. A 1 MOA rifle is conceivably a 600 yard deer rifle if its a TRUE 1 MOA rifle. A 1 MOA rifle is marginal for ground squirrels at 300 yards. Much smaller target. A 2 MOA rifle is easily effective on human size targets at 800 yards.

As a comparison the The M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System (SASS) military sniper rifle is spec'd as 1.3 MOA (Dispersion: The average mean radius (AMR) of each shot group shall be not greater than to 0.68 inches at 300 feet. All targets shall be fired on using M118LR ammunition or equivalent, using five (5) round groups.). Field reports say these rifles average between 0.5 and 1.0 MOA

 

[best defense]

I guess my question is, if you have any rifle that is capable of 1 MOA out of the box, how much are you will to spend to cut that in half, etc?

******************************************************************
I enjoy shooting 600 yard matches. I shot one last night. (Yes, we shoot 600 yard targets at night.) For my personal preferences, I would spend enough money to atain the goal of half minute if it was going to get me a good score or in the case of a hunting rifle, if it would enable me to kill game at a distance that other rifles would not allow me to do so under field conditions.
My current favorite rifle is a Remington 700. It has a trigger job on it that brings the trigger pull to just under 3 pounds. It has an after market barrel on it that cost me almost 300 dollars plus another 280 dollars to have it installed by a professional gunsmith who specializes in bench rest rifles. It has a telescopic sight that cost over 1000 dollars, closer to 2000. The rifle is not really suitable for hunting because it weighs 14 pounds, but it is capable of shooting sub minute of angle groups. Unfortunately it shoots better than I do. Last night I shot a score of 193 out of a possible 200.
So, how much would I spend? Over the last 5 years I have spent almost 3500 dollars on the rifle. Not all at one time, I did it in steps and stages. It took 6 months to get the barrel and have it installed. and over a year to save up for the scope. The basic rifle was 500 dollars used.

If the rifle was a hunting rifle and I could shoot minute of angle groups under field conditions I would not mess with it.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Op, what you need to do is shoot your Savage 12fv. All this talk and speculation on accuracy is fun, but the best way to reduce group size is to be out there and actually do some shooting. Use a solid bench, make sure you use some good sandbags and properly place them under the rifle. That last step is critical and important. Then just shoot and shoot more. Use a good scope without parallax issues. Practice the fundamentals in marksmanship. Consistency in form and practice will help reduce group size. I believe your rifle is fully capable of sub moa groups, based on experience with the 12fv.

 

[Goosebrown]

This would be my assumption for the average recreational target shooter. I understand the competition shooters might not share this view.

They should.

That's the definition of a 1 moa rifle.

We just don't use 1 moa rifles. We expect, and get .25 - .5 moa rifles.

Today's rifles should get you 1moa from a rest all day long with the right load.

Any savage off the shelf bolt action rifle will unless there's a major defect.

 

[rcnpthfndr]

investment is two fold for sub-moa consistency
1. you as the shooter
2. your equipment

much like fast cars its not a cheap hobby

 

[CLT65]

I know this comment is OT somewhat, but it's just an observation I had some years back, around the time I stopped chasing tiny little groups.

What's the practical value or a rifle that will shoot quarter-minute, over one that will shoot three-quarter-minute? Unless you're an extreme long range hunter or sniper, none at all, other than competition and bragging rights.

Don't get me wrong; precision can be a great discipline, but I just didn't have the time or interest to pursue it.

That was also about the same time I gave up hunting. For me it was just a guy thing that guys do where I grew up. One day I realized that I really never enjoyed it and hated killing things. For all the cost of a license and tags I could buy a lot of meat, and for all the time spent hunting and preparing I could be doing something I enjoyed instead, like shooting at the range. Nothing against hunting and hunters, it's just not for me.

If you enjoy the discipline of precision marksmanship, and have the time and money to chase it, by all means go for it.