Minors handling guns at gun stores

[ApronAmy]

I took my daughters to a sporting goods store today to introduce them to a real, live hand gun. I wanted to demystify guns a little bit for them. They have never seen one in person before, never touched one, never had a chance to see what I'm spending so much of my time and money preparing to purchase.

Unfortunately, the store I went to has a policy (not posted anywhere) that no one under 21 is allowed to handle the guns. Even with their mother standing right next to them. Even when the gun is obviously unloaded. Even when the children are way, way too young to even think about pretending to be old enough to buy one.

I still let my girls touch the gun (while I held it in my hand) and ask questions but I could tell I was making the sales guy nervous. I got annoyed and walked away but after thinking about it more I went back for clarification because I was sure Oregon law says parents can give their children guns at any age.

The second sales guy said it was just a store policy, because the store interprets "possessing a firearm" as holding one at the gun counter. When I pressed the issue about me "possessing" it and then handing it to my daughter, he reiterated that it was just a store policy he had to enforce.

So, my questions: Is this a typical rule? Should I not even bother bringing my girls to any more gun stores? Were the sales guys overreacting? And finally, do you think all three of us being "girls" had anything to do with how quick they were to enforce their policy or am I being too sensitive?

Thanks,
Amy

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[sprice37]

Go to a different store. I have neer had that problem at a gun store. I took my 4 year old to pick out her first rifle and they had np problems woth her handling it, of course I was present. Guess what, they made a sale.

 

[andy*]

The Youth Handgun Safety Act, a Federal law,which was passed about a decade ago, made it illegal for anyone under 21 to handle a handgun. If I remember right.
Just for the record I think it is kinda of a silly rule, myself... Andy

 

[SavageGerbil]

Yea, forget that store. A lot of the time its less of a matter of worrying about X happening, especially when its honestly not a big issue like that, but to an employee its all the same big issue: getting in trouble when the job market sucks. I nearly had customers go to blows with me over policies when working at the walmart photolab

I'm just saying this guy might not be a dink, but you still shouldn't spend any money with them.

 

[pchewn]

<broken link removed>

(3) This subsection does not apply to--
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or
ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use
of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the
handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by
the juvenile-
(i) in the course of employment, in the
course of ranching or farming related to
activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on
property used for ranching or farming at which
the juvenile, with the permission of the property
owner or lessee, is performing activities related
to the operation of the farm or ranch), target
practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in
the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent

People under 18 are not allowed to own/posess the handgun.

There is a temporary exception allowed for hunting/ranching/safety training, etc.....

I would think that handling the gun in the store could be covered under the training section ???

There also appears to be an exception if the juvenile has a note from mommy or daddy ... but it is really unclear to me whether this is is sufficient, or if it has to be combined with one of the many other exceptions...

 

[spengo]

I took my daughters to a sporting goods store today to introduce them to a real, live hand gun. I wanted to demystify guns a little bit for them. They have never seen one in person before, never touched one, never had a chance to see what I'm spending so much of my time and money preparing to purchase.

Unfortunately, the store I went to has a policy (not posted anywhere) that no one under 21 is allowed to handle the guns. Even with their mother standing right next to them. Even when the gun is obviously unloaded. Even when the children are way, way too young to even think about pretending to be old enough to buy one.

I still let my girls touch the gun (while I held it in my hand) and ask questions but I could tell I was making the sales guy nervous. I got annoyed and walked away but after thinking about it more I went back for clarification because I was sure Oregon law says parents can give their children guns at any age.

The second sales guy said it was just a store policy, because the store interprets "possessing a firearm" as holding one at the gun counter. When I pressed the issue about me "possessing" it and then handing it to my daughter, he reiterated that it was just a store policy he had to enforce.

So, my questions: Is this a typical rule? Should I not even bother bringing my girls to any more gun stores? Were the sales guys overreacting? And finally, do you think all three of us being "girls" had anything to do with how quick they were to enforce their policy or am I being too sensitive?

Thanks,
Amy

Why not let them shoot your own? Bought that M&P compact yet? Also, it is not you being girls. Back when I was a minor, some gun stores (not all) would ask if I was 21 when I wanted to handle handguns.

 

[ApronAmy]

Why not let them shoot your own? Bought that M&P compact yet?

Nope, haven't bought it yet... I'm saving my pennies and looking for a deal.

I also think it's important my girls get the chance to at least see the gun before I bring one home. I want them to have a chance to ask questions and get used to the idea gradually.

 

[tattoo]

If we were closer than I would gladly spend a day with you and your girls and my son out at a range with what I have.
Maybe some one who lives closer to you will cowboy up and have a safe range day with you guys,
My son started when he was 9. Almost 12 now and he is much wiser and in my eyes, safer for the time we have spent at the range. We have always been able to feel out the guns at my local store. Maybe because I am a good customer?
Dave

 

[ApronAmy]

If we were closer than I would gladly spend a day with you and your girls and my son out at a range with what I have.
Maybe some one who lives closer to you will cowboy up and have a safe range day with you guys,
My son started when he was 9. Almost 12 now and he is much wiser and in my eyes, safer for the time we have spent at the range. We have always been able to feel out the guns at my local store. Maybe because I am a good customer?
Dave

Thank you, Dave. My boyfriend has plenty of handguns for when I get to the point of feeling like my daughters are ready for the range. The younger one is too... um... "flighty" for me to feel comfortable handing her a loaded gun without some more safety talks and practice at home just holding it safely. Today was the first of many planned steps, just wish it had gone a little better

 

[SonicBlue03]

Sounds like you have your own solution. Have them handle one of your boyfriends' pistols somewhere outside of the home and bypass going to a retail store.

 

[absoluterik07]

I know wholesale sports and sports authority both have that policy. I think it is more of a liability issue for the big corporate stores trying to cover their butts "just in case". It's a stupid policy if you ask me but then again you can always go somewhere else as a consumer.

 

[Celtic Armory]

Aside from the "take your kids to the range" idea; go ahead and take them with you to gun stores, but don't expect the store to let them handle the firearms. While technically the law says that a dealer can't sell a handgun to anyone under 21, the BATFE could work other angles. There was a case of an adult gang member with his son in a store somewhere and was "teaching" him about the AK and such. Seems there was some flap about that incident. I would politely ask permission from the store manager to see if you could let your children handle any particular firearm, but if they say no, don't get offended. They may be worried about their business. The BATFE doesn't really need a valid reason to shut a business down. If the manager is rude about it, take your business to somewhere more polite. If I had a store and you walked in, I would permit your girls to handle a firearm provided there was hands on supervision and provided the safety rules were clearly explained and that they understood.

 

[twoclones]

The Youth Handgun Safety Act, a Federal law,which was passed about a decade ago, made it illegal for anyone under 21 to handle a handgun. If I remember right.
Just for the record I think it is kinda of a silly rule, myself... Andy

That's partially true. As always, there are plenty of exceptions. I've had the sales person hand the gun to me then I handed it to my child. No one objected...

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
YOUTH HANDGUN SAFETY ACT NOTICE
ATF 1 5300.2 (7-2004)
(1) The misuse of handguns is a leading contributor to juvenile violence and fatalities.
(2) Safely storing and securing firearms away from children will help prevent the unlawful possession of handguns by juveniles, stop accidents, and save lives.


(3) Federal law prohibits, except in certain limited circumstances, anyone under 18 years of age from knowingly possessing a handgun, or any person from selling, delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under 18.


(4) A knowing violation of the prohibition against selling, delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under the age of 18 is, under certain circumstances, punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

FEDERAL LAW
The Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, provides in pertinent part as follows:

18 U.S.C. 922(x)

(x)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile-

(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.


(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess-


(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.


(3) This subsection does not apply to-

(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile-


(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;

(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except-

(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or arming activities as described in clause


(i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and

(iv) in accordance with State and local law;

(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;

(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or

(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which he juvenile is an invited guest.


(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.
(6)


(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant's parent or legal guardian at all proceedings.

(B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph (A).

(C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of a violation of this subsection for good cause shown.

18 U.S.C. 924(a)(6)
(6)(A)

(i) A juvenile who violates section 922(x) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, except that a juvenile described in clause
(ii) shall be sentenced to probation on appropriate conditions and shall not be incarcerated unless the juvenile fails to comply with a condition of probation.
(ii) A juvenile is described in this clause .if --


(I) the offense of which the juvenile is charged is possession of a handgun or ammunition in violation of section 922(x)(2); and
(II) the juvenile has not been convicted in any court of an offense (including an offense under section 922(x) or a similar State law, but not including any other offense consisting of conduct that if engaged in by an adult would not constitute an offense) or adjudicated as a juvenile delinquent for conduct that if engaged in by an adult would constitute an offense.


(B) A person other than a juvenile who knowingly violates section 922(x)-


(i) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than I year, or both; and
(ii) if the person sold, delivered, or otherwise transferred a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile knowing or having reasonable cause to know that the juvenile intended to carry or otherwise possess or discharge or otherwise use the handgun or ammunition in the commission of a crime of violence, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

If you have any questions, contact:

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20226

Phone: (202)927-7770 OR

Visit our web site at www.atf.treas.gov

 

[gehrheart]

In all my life I have never been questioned about my age while wanting to see a firearm, until today. I was in a pawn shop and saw what seemed like a brand new sig p225 9mm and I wanted a closer look at this $495 piece. I had to show ID to prove my age, (I'm pushing 40). Now in one way it is kind of a complement. It was explained unless I am at least 21, I can not touch the pistols.

Weird,

I'd find a different store. And no, I do not have a new sig.

 

[sandman1212]

have them handle a firearm in the privacy of your home. less distractions.

 

[The B]

minors cant "own" anything to begin with.. so the whole ownership thing is pretty moot.

youths most certainly can handle handguns. they cant just roll around town with them, but they can certainly "have" and operate their own handguns. youth shooting sports is plenty alive and well- and a damn fine thing.

that gun shop is retarded- screw over protective/reactive rules and the people who come up with them.

 

[davidgpo]

Check out an NRA affiliated firearm safety course. In Seattle, the Washington Arms Collectors hosts free training at our gun shows. There might be similar training available in your area. Contact your local NRA for details. Also, check your local shooting ranges, many of them have staff available for training. There's lots of opportunities out there, you just have to dig a little deeper.

David