Minnesota, here we go again. I'm betting ammo/gun sales are brisk

[GripItAndRipIt]

There is no "straw man" fallacy in my post. You don't need to waste your time addressing it. If it was a poor example, then it was a poor example. My bad, it was the first example that popped in my head while multitasking at work of forced compliance.

Of course it was a straw man. "Lawful orders of police" =/= "Systematic Nazi oppression and mass genocide of ethnic and religious minorities" in even the most generous interpretations. Your argument didn't just attempt to move the goalposts, it moved the whole stadium. To a different planet. In a different solar system.

Any thoughts on the citizen in the video? Was he right to not comply?

 

[Dinglenutz]

In the mean time, here's another video. And a simple binary: Given police are authorized by law to issue lawful commands to citizens for their safety, was the citizen in the video in the right or in the wrong for refusing to comply with the officer's lawful orders?

There is insufficient info as to why the order was lawful. I don't care for police pestering people who are otherwise engaged in lawful activity. If the officer was engaged in investigating a criminal act or some other reasonable circumstance he should be (IMO) required to articulate that to the subject first.

That said, shooting a guy is over the top - a simple lawsuit later should suffice.

 

[Kruel J]

No, I have no more thoughts on this. Enjoy.

 

[bkroger86]

Sad to say, but I can't imagine anyone other than criminals and ANTIFA/BLM thugs wanting to stay in that city any longer.

Time to widen your imagination. https://katu.com/news/local/portland-housing-market-is-insane-homes-going-for-100k-over-asking

It's like 2016 all over again. Inventory is at historic lows, prices are skyrocketing, and listings are going for $50k-$100k over asking. Average sale is over $500k and that's up 10% over the past year.

If you thought the past year has made people look for the exit from Portland, there are clearly more than enough new buyers ready to move in to prevent that from happening.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

This video does a poor job showing the reason for the attempted detainment. If it showed the guy committing a crime prior to him making this interaction I'd 100% agree with you. Otherwise it just shows a cop yelling at a guy to comply for ? reasons, then getting shot. So what was the lawful reason he attempted the stop? Because he could?

Pedantics noted. The logical conclusion to your argument is that he was right to discharge a firearm into the face of another human being at point blank range.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Time to widen your imagination. https://katu.com/news/local/portland-housing-market-is-insane-homes-going-for-100k-over-asking

It's like 2016 all over again. Inventory is at historic lows, prices are skyrocketing, and listings are going for $50k-$100k over asking.

If you thought the past year has made people look for the exit from Portland, there are clearly more than enough new buyers ready to move in to prevent that from happening.

Californians cashing in and fleeing the bubblegumhole they created by moving to a slightly lesser bubblegumhole.

 

[Knobgoblin]

@Reno , I could dredge the interwebs for videos of charging elephants goring hunters and other tourists. Cut down to the second or 2 before the trample attack is cast , and I can attempt to make a case that elephants are death machines.

No preamble as to why the film crew is present, no alluding to the fact that the hunter was stalking said elephant for the purpose of killing it.

I understand why you question.

Just like numbers can lie , the camera also can distort the truth of events if only the finale is filmed.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Yeah. I never said don't comply. I was trying to go bigger picture but I must have failed. No worries, I'll let it go.

Yet you tried to conflate compliance with the lawful orders of police with Nazi pogroms? You may not have said "don't comply," but your argument certainly implied it.

 

[Kruel J]

Yet you tried to conflate compliance with the lawful orders of police with Nazi pogroms? You may not have said "don't comply," but your argument certainly implied it.

So you recently joined NWFA to quote and argue with everyone? I already said I was done here and even noted my poor example. Let it go.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

There is insufficient info as to why the order was lawful. I don't care for police pestering people who are otherwise engaged in lawful activity. If the officer was engaged in investigating a criminal act or some other reasonable circumstance he should be (IMO) required to articulate that to the subject first.

That said, shooting a guy is over the top - a simple lawsuit later should suffice.

There is a longer version of the video ifnyou really need to see it. You can assume the commands were lawful. The guy was a robbery suspect. Oh and shocker! He was armed... no wonder he didn't want to take his hands out if his pockets. His Glock might've fallen out and then he couldn't shoot the cop.

 

[Member 34319]

Pedantics noted. The logical conclusion to your argument is that he was right to discharge a firearm into the face of another human being at point blank range.

Thats got that out of what I said? I never said anything remotely close to this. Cops DO NOT know if someone has a gun and is going to shoot them. The don't read minds and or have X-ray vision. It is an unfortunate part of their job that they do not know this, however it is there job to operate within the law. Even if bad guys carry guns and shoot at them.

What I did say was I saw NO lawful reason for the officer to make detainment. Guy walking down the street IS NOT illegal.

You like to operate on facts, but you sure do like to shoot which ones are and are not to your liking.

I agree with @Kruel J at this point. Use of the word pedantic kind of seals the deal, I'm out!

 

[Kruel J]

I've read COUNTLESS posts here on NWFA about not complying with new gun laws. Even I've said it. Ive read where members have even said there will be lots of blood spilled if LE shows up to collect guns door to door. LOTS of this talk of non compliance. And I agree.

But then we have this thread, where some of those very same members are saying compliance is necessary and would have saved his life.

My hypocrisy only goes so far.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

No preamble as to why the film crew is present, no alluding to the fact that the hunter was stalking said elephant for the purpose of killing it.

I understand why you question.

Just like numbers can lie , the camera also can distort the truth of events if only the finale is filmed.

None of which changes the fact that the subject shot the police officer in the face at a range of two feet. We can infer from this that the dude was being pursued for a lawful reason. Or you can watch the whole 35 minute video to obtain all the facts. The whole point of the video was to illustrate why cops give lawful commands to citizens to insure their safety. Compliance with those commands is almost always a good idea.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

I've read COUNTLESS posts here on NWFA about not complying with new gun laws. Even I've said it. Ive read where members have even said there will be lots of blood spilled if LE shows up to collect guns door to door. LOTS of this talk of non compliance. And I agree.

But then we have this thread, where some of those very same members are saying compliance is necessary and would have saved his life.

My hypocrisy only goes so far.

Another straw man? Onions to hand grenades...

 

[Member 34319]

I've read COUNTLESS posts here on NWFA about not complying with new gun laws. Even I've said it. Ive read where members have even said there will be lots of blood spilled if LE shows up to collect guns door to door. LOTS of this talk of non compliance. And I agree.

But then we have this thread, where some of those very same members are saying compliance is necessary and would have saved his life.

My hypocrisy only goes so far.

Unfortunately for mods, that ignore button don't work!

I feel you J.

 

[Kruel J]

Another straw man? Onions to hand grenades...

Whatever. I can't count how many noobs like you come and go around here. Keep up the arguments and straw man comments. I'll still be here long after it's forgotten.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

So you recently joined NWFA to quote and argue with everyone? I already said I was done here and even noted my poor example. Let it go.

Fallacy: Argumentum ad hominem. I am not the topic of this thread.

That said, I'll play: This is an internet forum for the exhange of information and ideas, is it not? Sounds like you're saying I have to agree with everyone and that the fact I'm a new member has some relevance to your position. Please help me understand.

 

[Knobgoblin]

You just watched a video of a person shoot a police officer in the face. And your response was you weren't sure if it was a lawful stop thay l

None of which changes the fact that the subject shot the police officer in the face at a range of two feet. We can infer from this that the dude was being pursued for a lawful reason. Or you can watch the whole 35 minute video to obtain all the facts. The whole point of the video was to illustrate why cops give lawful commands to citizens to insure their safety. Compliance with those commands is almost always a good idea.

Since your sitting the rest of the debate team down, I'll do a couple volleys with you. Preface with: I might drop out unannounced if we go out to have fun.
So , I think that police work is at an all time low as far as job satisfaction, and compensation. This is massively different in urban areas vs. small town/rural agencies. Let's focus on big city police departments . If we can agree to that foundational fact, what's the solution?

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Whatever. I can't count how many noobs like you come and go around here. Keep up the arguments and straw man comments. I'll still be here long after it's forgotten.

Thank you for the warm welcome. If disagreeing with a moderator's argument is a rule violation, you can cancel me now.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Since your sitting the rest of the debate team down, I'll do a couple volleys with you. Preface with: I might drop out unannounced if we go out to have fun.
So , I think that police work is at an all time low as far as job satisfaction, and compensation. This is massively different in urban areas vs. small town/rural agencies. Let's focus on big city police departments . If we can agree to that foundational fact, what's the solution?

Not sure what you're asking here. Can you be more specific, please?