Minnesota, here we go again. I'm betting ammo/gun sales are brisk

[Knobgoblin]

For better or worse, we have rules in a civilized society. One of those rules is that you obey the duly-enacted laws — as my freedom to swing my fist stops at the tip of your nose. When a citizen chooses to disobey the duly-enacted laws, we the people impose consequences. One of the consequences is possible physical detention and confinement in accordance with the severity of the transgression. As you just stated above the value you place on your personal freedom, apprehending people who wish not to lose theirs is a dangerous business. We task agents of the state with apprehending these people, and we provide them with training and equipment to insure to the best of our ability that these transgressors are lawfully detained with the least risk to life, liberty, and property. We also authorize these agents to use physical force — up to and including lethal — to accomplish this end. We also authorize these agents to issue lawful commands to further minimize the risk and contain any potential threat. If a cop tells you to keep your hands visible, for example, that is not an assault on your freedom. If a cop wants to get home to his or her family at the end of each shift, they must view you as a potential threat until they can establish to their satisfaction you are not.

If you value your freedom, the best course of action is to obey the duly-enacted laws. You may also work to change them if you feel they are unjust. However, if you are in violation of the law prepare to accept the consequences. It is a fallacy to suggest force is justified on your part in "defense of your liberty" if you are under lawful apprehension to answer for your transgression of the duly-enacted laws.

Agree with you as it pertains to me. I have chosen to obey directions issued by uniformed law enforcement personnel several times. I have personally visited the chief of police in the next town over to discuss face to face the lack of professionalism (and intelligence) of his subordinates. I am a reasonable adult. I didn't get shot ,or even have a gun pointed at me. I'm not calling for disbanding the police, and I also never raise them on a pedestal.

If you think cops have it too tough, I submit the fact that it's an all volunteer vocation.
I wouldn't have a problem with making law enforcement an educated person's profession. Lawyers pass the bar , doctors do med school and residency. Too far?

 

[RVTECH]

Like when I lived in the Peoples' Republic of China.

Had similar when I was in Italy - the Carabinieri.

 

[Member 53328]

I'm afraid you're still missing the point. The video has nothing to do with the lawfulness of the encounter. It was posted to illustrate why officers give commands to citizens such as "show me your hands." Cops generally have no idea who they're dealing with so to preserve their own lives they need to maintain command of the situation to the extent possible. That is the point. This is what I mean when I say "THIS IS WHY WE COMPLY."

So the officers safety and comfort is more relevant then your rights. The officer has to have a reasonable suspicion or probable cause to stop and detain you. If you are ok with cops stopping and harassing whoever they want for no reason but to get their rocks off than I don't know what to say. It sounds like some people are welcoming a police state. A state where you do what you are told. No thinking. No questions. Operate from the neck down. The government will think for you. That is a dangerous road to travel. I'm not going to compare it to genocides, or the Holocaust but it all starts somewhere. Tread lightly. If a cop stops you, simply asked if you are being detained. If the officer says no then respectfully continue walking.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Duterte for mayor of Portland?

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Agree with you as it pertains to me. I have chosen to obey directions issued by uniformed law enforcement personnel several times. I have personally visited the chief of police in the next town over to discuss face to face the lack of professionalism (and intelligence) of his subordinates. I am a reasonable adult. I didn't get shot ,or even have a gun pointed at me. I'm not calling for disbanding the police, and I also never raise them on a pedestal.

If you think cops have it too tough, I submit the fact that it's an all volunteer vocation.
I wouldn't have a problem with making law enforcement an educated person's profession. Lawyers pass the bar , doctors do med school and residency. Too far?

Where did I state I think cops "have it too tough" as you asserted?

 

[Knobgoblin]

Where did I state I think cops "have it too tough" as you asserted?

This is your jam .

I don't think you state it anywhere, and I am not here to play lawyer with you.
I would like to speak to broader issues and have some kind of dialogue about progress or regression in daily life here in the US and A.

 

[Member 53328]

Agree with you as it pertains to me. I have chosen to obey directions issued by uniformed law enforcement personnel several times. I have personally visited the chief of police in the next town over to discuss face to face the lack of professionalism (and intelligence) of his subordinates. I am a reasonable adult. I didn't get shot ,or even have a gun pointed at me. I'm not calling for disbanding the police, and I also never raise them on a pedestal.

If you think cops have it too tough, I submit the fact that it's an all volunteer vocation.
I wouldn't have a problem with making law enforcement an educated person's profession. Lawyers pass the bar , doctors do med school and residency. Too far?

The problem is you put education as a requirement and you pool of applicants shrinks even more. I think LE is a career field that a lot of individuals gravitate to simply for the reason you don't have to go to college/higher education. I think it should be an affordable system like a trade school. Spend some quality time learning. Training. Communicating. Getting punched in the face and adapting. Weed out the people who are going to be a liability. We all know the academy for entry level cops is a joke. The physical and mental requirements are pathetic. Which leaves us with unqualified and undertrained officers.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

So the officers safety and comfort is more relevant then your rights.

Never said anything even remotely close to that.

The officer has to have a reasonable suspicion or probable cause to stop and detain you.

Where did I state otherwise?

If you are ok with cops stopping and harassing whoever they want for no reason but to get their rocks off than I don't know what to say.

Please cite where I even remotely suggested that.

Itsounds like some people are welcoming a police state. A state where you do what you are told. No thinking. No questions. Operate from the neck down. The government will think for you. That is a dangerous road to travel. I'm not going to compare it to genocides, or the Holocaust but it all starts somewhere. Tread lightly. If a cop stops you, simply asked if you are being detained. If the officer says no then respectfully continue walking.

That's a lot of hyperbole in this context.

 

[Knobgoblin]

The problem is you put education as a requirement and you pool of applicants shrinks even more. I think LE is a career field that a lot of individuals gravitate to simply for the reason you don't have to go to college/higher education. I think it should be an affordable system like a trade school. Spend some quality time learning. Training. Communicating. Getting punched in the face and adapting. Weed out the people who are going to be a liability. We all know the academy for entry level cops is a joke. The physical and mental requirements are pathetic. Which leaves us with unqualified and undertrained officers.

This. THIS , golf fans, is dialogue. Constructive dialogue.
Thank you my friend. I appreciate you.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

This is your jam .

Not sure what that means nor its relevance. Argumentum ad hominem: I am not the topic of this thread. Please stay on topic.

I don't think you state it anywhere, and I am not here to play lawyer with you.

You're right: I didn't. I'll ask you to please not falsely attribute statements I never made.

I would like to speak to broader issues and have some kind of dialogue about progress or regression in daily life here in the US and A.

I would recommend you start a thread on that topic in that case.

 

[Member 53328]

Never said anything even remotely close to that.


Where did I state otherwise?


Please cite where I even remotely suggested that.

Itsounds like some people are welcoming a police state. A state where you do what you are told. No thinking. No questions. Operate from the neck down. The government will think for you. That is a dangerous road to travel. I'm not going to compare it to genocides, or the Holocaust but it all starts somewhere. Tread lightly. If a cop stops you, simply asked if you are being detained. If the officer says no then respectfully continue walking.

That's a lot of hyperbole in this context.

I'm not going to sit with you arguing back and forth with absolutely no end in sight. Someone else can stroke you ego. It's not gunna be me.

 

[Member 53328]

This. THIS , golf fans, is dialogue. Constructive dialogue.
Thank you my friend. I appreciate you.

Thank you as well. Some get it. Some never will.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

The problem is you put education as a requirement and you pool of applicants shrinks even more. I think LE is a career field that a lot of individuals gravitate to simply for the reason you don't have to go to college/higher education. I think it should be an affordable system like a trade school. Spend some quality time learning. Training. Communicating. Getting punched in the face and adapting. Weed out the people who are going to be a liability. We all know the academy for entry level cops is a joke. The physical and mental requirements are pathetic. Which leaves us with unqualified and undertrained officers.

I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush. There are some dopey cops for sure. There are also a few thousand who ran towards collapsing office towers while thousands more of your fellow citizens were trampling each other to get out alive. For every Derek Chauvin, there's a dozen Eric Talleys.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Not sure what that means nor its relevance. Argumentum ad hominem: I am not the topic if this thread. Please stay on topic.

You're right: I didn't. I'll ask you to please not falsely attribute statements I never made.

I would recommend you start a thread on that topic in that case.

Lol.
I actually started this thread thinking about how guns were going to be selling like hand sanitizer at a booger eating contest.
The thread went were it went. I don't mind, it's just what happens here.
You like to argue, I get it . You are actually pretty good at it. I can give you my wife's cell phone number and you can argue with her all night. Keep coming with the classical fallacious flags too. I actually like that. Genuine appreciation.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

I'm not going to sit with you arguing back and forth with absolutely no end in sight. Someone else can stroke you ego. It's not gunna be me.

Noted you failed to substantiate your bogus claims. Concession accepted.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Lol.
I actually started this thread thinking about how guns were going to be selling like hand sanitizer at a booger eating contest.
The thread went were it went. I don't mind, it's just what happens here.
You like to argue, I get it . You are actually pretty good at it. I can give you my wife's cell phone number and you can argue with her all night. Keep coming with the classical fallacious flags too. I actually like that. Genuine appreciation.

I enjoy a good faith discussion with rational people of good will whether in agreement or not.

I have enough arguments with my own wife, I don't need to add yours to the mix.

 

[Member 53328]

Someone doesn't get enough attention at home. Or wasn't loved enough as a child.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Noted you failed to substantiate your bogus claims. Concession accepted.

When did we get a concession stand?

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Someone doesn't get enough attention at home. Or wasn't loved enough as a child.

Sorry you are unable to proffer a substantive argument. Your playground taunts — while entertaining — are a poor substitute for worthwhile discourse.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Sorry you are unable to proffer a substantive argument. Your playground taunts — while entertaining — are a poor substitute for worthwhile discourse.

Godda**it !
We have a playground too? I miss everything fun around here.