Minimum barrel length, .44 Magnum?

[OldBroad44]

I think .44mag truly comes into its own at six inch barrel length. And longer. You lose so much of the round's potential in shorter barrels it's like buying a 747, knocking the wings off, and running it on the highway. Possible, but why?

I think those who buy and carry snubby and short barrel .44 mag revolvers are usually advocates of practicing little with such guns at all but just carrying them, or practicing with low power loads (.44 special) and carrying high power. I'm not a fan of either. For me, any handgun, even my 9.5" Ruger Super Redhawk--bought primarily for recreation and hunting (and because it whispered seductively to me when I tried to walk past it in a gun show thinking I wanted something else)--must also be great for self defense too. And for self defense what gives me the most confidence is a gun I've fired a lot loaded with ammo that has a trajectory and recoil close to what I carry for real. And fact is, I will only shoot a gun/load combination a lot if I enjoy it. If recoil is so heavy the gun twists and tries to leave my hands entirely, or hurts my wrists, I don't enjoy it. So make my .44mags 6" or longer, with heavy barrels and muzzle-heavy balance to soak up the recoil. And if that's not macho enough for ya, hey, I don't gotta be. I'm an old broad, after all.

 

[The Heretic]

My 329 with a 4" barrel is what I call a "field gun"; i.e., a general purpose revolver capable of "ad hoc" usage. By "ad hoc" I mean a pistol to have with me just in case, not for a specific purpose, but general usage, protection, unplanned hunting, etc.

I believe that it serves its purpose as an all around handgun.

 

[xtratoy]

I like this one...

 

[2gunnztoo]

I like this one...

View attachment 979133

bookoo booful!!!

 

[OldBroad44]

My favorite 44 mag is a 3.75" barrel, Bisley super Blackhawk. I have learned, with age, that John Taffin is 100% on the money with his statements about perfect pack'in revolvers. For packing, my advice is stay under 5".

The First Perfect Packin’ Pistol - American Handgunner

Too many decades ago, I coined the phrase “Perfect Packin’ Pistol”. Over the years many dedicated sixgunners have taken up this phrase, often shortened to PPP, to indicate what may be the most useful handgun in one’s working collection.

americanhandgunner.com

Out of a 4" barrel, a 300 grain hard cast at 1200 fps will take care of any situation you might encounter in the lower 48. And if needed it can pushed faster.

I've chronographed enough loads to know that I do not gain enough velocity with longer barrels to justify the longer length.

Hmmm. Lets see. 300 grain bullet at 1200 fps. That's 959 ft. lbs. Would this make a workable self defense load for me in a 4" gun?

One of my criteria for SD is I need to be able to fire the gun well with one hand with either hand. This is very important if attacked by bears or cougars. (See article at Garrett Cartridge website.) With a 6" Anaconda and 240 grain bullets I can shoot well with either hand at about 1000 ft. lbs. or below. Above that and I need to use two hands. Over-the-counter .44 mag ammo is generally 800 to 1200. The special load Garrett designed for SD against grizzlies is about 800-900 as I recall. And the HSM Bear load is about 1000. Both loads at the mild end so they can be shot one-handed. The load @Lennie designed for his 4" gun is giving a performance squarely in the range of Garrett or HSM bear loads. Theirs are also hard cast bullets, his 300gr, theirs 310 as I recall. So there is every reason to believe that the Lennie Bear load is not only good enough for anything in the lower 48, but also as good as you can do against grizzlies with a .44 mag. And designed for a 4" gun. Those who carry 4" .44mag revolvers and reload, take note.

But would it work for me? No. Not if I stick with my criterion of being able to shoot one handed with either hand. For that I need to stay below 1000 ft. lbs. from a heavy Anaconda weighing about 50 ounces with an under lugged and muzzle heavy barrel. At 959 fps the Lennie Bear load is near my upper limit. By the time you figure I was firing A much heavier gun with a heavier under lugged and longer barrel and lighter bullets, there's no doubt I would need two hands to control a 4" .44mag revolver firing Lennie Bear loads. So I'll need to stick to my 6" or greater revolvers. However, I'm built on a slender 5' 9" female frame. Lots of people here are bigger or sturdier. In addition, the Lennie Bear load was at the upper end of the ideal energy window for bear SD. If you reduce the powder a little to bring fps to 1096, this would hit the lower end of the sweet spot, 800 ft. lbs. That might work for me from a 4" gun. I'd need to try it. Note that this load would also be subsonic

Good job, Lennie.

 

[WAYNO]

I've been a long time fan of anything .44, both Mag and Special.

I've got long ones, short ones, and medium ones.

For many years, I standardized on 4" with DA, and 4-5/8" with SA's.

That said, in later years, I've further changed it up to a 6" preference in DA, and 3-3/4" in SA. Don't know why the really short SA works, but it does.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

This is a pretty informative site:

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .44 Mag Results

(statement of intent)

www.ballisticsbytheinch.com

 

[The Heretic]

Hmmm. Lets see. 300 grain bullet at 1200 fps. That's 959 ft. lbs. Would this make a workable self defense load for me in a 4" gun?

One of my criteria for SD is I need to be able to fire the gun well with one hand with either hand. This is very important if attacked by bears or cougars. (See article at Garrett Cartridge website.) With a 6" Anaconda and 240 grain bullets I can shoot well with either hand at about 1000 ft. lbs. or below. Above that and I need to use two hands. Over-the-counter .44 mag ammo is generally 800 to 1200. The special load Garrett designed for SD against grizzlies is about 800-900 as I recall. And the HSM Bear load is about 1000. Both loads at the mild end so they can be shot one-handed. The load @Lennie designed for his 4" gun is giving a performance squarely in the range of Garrett or HSM bear loads. Theirs are also hard cast bullets, his 300gr, theirs 310 as I recall. So there is every reason to believe that the Lennie Bear load is not only good enough for anything in the lower 48, but also as good as you can do against grizzlies with a .44 mag. And designed for a 4" gun. Those who carry 4" .44mag revolvers and reload, take note.

But would it work for me? No. Not if I stick with my criterion of being able to shoot one handed with either hand. For that I need to stay below 1000 ft. lbs. from a heavy Anaconda weighing about 50 ounces with an under lugged and muzzle heavy barrel. At 959 fps the Lennie Bear load is near my upper limit. By the time you figure I was firing A much heavier gun with a heavier under lugged and longer barrel and lighter bullets, there's no doubt I would need two hands to control a 4" .44mag revolver firing Lennie Bear loads. So I'll need to stick to my 6" or greater revolvers. However, I'm built on a slender 5' 9" female frame. Lots of people here are bigger or sturdier. In addition, the Lennie Bear load was at the upper end of the ideal energy window for bear SD. If you reduce the powder a little to bring fps to 1096, this would hit the lower end of the sweet spot, 800 ft. lbs. That might work for me from a 4" gun. I'd need to try it. Note that this load would also be subsonic

Good job, Lennie.

For me, it isn't the barrel length, it is the weight of the gun. I can easily shoot my 460V (4" barrel and 1" comp for 5" total), one handed, either hand, with loads double the "power" of the hottest .44 mag loads. OTOH, my 329PD 4" barrel, in .44 mag is a beast with regards to recoil - it stings my hands and leaves. them numb. The main difference? The 460V weighs 60oz unloaded, the 329PD weighs 26oz. The comp helps the 460V, but the main reason the 460V is a pussycat by comparison is the weight.

The problem is, at ~65oz loaded, carrying it is not fun, just as shooting the 329 is not fun - but I am a lot more likely to carry the 329 as a matter of habit than I am carrying the 460V.

I can shoot the 329 with either hand, one handed, but I do not make a habit of it as it is not fun to shoot.

 

[titsonritz]

For me a 44 mag needs to be a minimum of 4" but I prefer 5-6". I've had longer barrels but IMO they become too unwieldy to pack and at some point you may as well carry rifle.

 

[Lennie]

Hmmm. Lets see. 300 grain bullet at 1200 fps. That's 959 ft. lbs. Would this make a workable self defense load for me in a 4" gun?

One of my criteria for SD is I need to be able to fire the gun well with one hand with either hand. This is very important if attacked by bears or cougars. (See article at Garrett Cartridge website.) With a 6" Anaconda and 240 grain bullets I can shoot well with either hand at about 1000 ft. lbs. or below. Above that and I need to use two hands. Over-the-counter .44 mag ammo is generally 800 to 1200. The special load Garrett designed for SD against grizzlies is about 800-900 as I recall. And the HSM Bear load is about 1000. Both loads at the mild end so they can be shot one-handed. The load @Lennie designed for his 4" gun is giving a performance squarely in the range of Garrett or HSM bear loads. Theirs are also hard cast bullets, his 300gr, theirs 310 as I recall. So there is every reason to believe that the Lennie Bear load is not only good enough for anything in the lower 48, but also as good as you can do against grizzlies with a .44 mag. And designed for a 4" gun. Those who carry 4" .44mag revolvers and reload, take note.

But would it work for me? No. Not if I stick with my criterion of being able to shoot one handed with either hand. For that I need to stay below 1000 ft. lbs. from a heavy Anaconda weighing about 50 ounces with an under lugged and muzzle heavy barrel. At 959 fps the Lennie Bear load is near my upper limit. By the time you figure I was firing A much heavier gun with a heavier under lugged and longer barrel and lighter bullets, there's no doubt I would need two hands to control a 4" .44mag revolver firing Lennie Bear loads. So I'll need to stick to my 6" or greater revolvers. However, I'm built on a slender 5' 9" female frame. Lots of people here are bigger or sturdier. In addition, the Lennie Bear load was at the upper end of the ideal energy window for bear SD. If you reduce the powder a little to bring fps to 1096, this would hit the lower end of the sweet spot, 800 ft. lbs. That might work for me from a 4" gun. I'd need to try it. Note that this load would also be subsonic

Good job, Lennie.

I long ago gave up on using foot pounds of energy. I much prefer this formula:
Hornady Index of Terminal Standards (HITS)

Here is a great discussion on the formula

How to Calculate Bullet Impact

You can find a bullet energy calculator and similar tools online, but all of these take advantage of the basic physics equations relating mass, velocity, momentum, kinetic energy, acceleration and force. The speed of the bullet is important, but so is its shape, e.g., its diameter.

sciencing.com

Hornady H.I.T.S. Guideline for Rifle Cartridges

A 300 grain .430 diameter at 1200 fps obtains a wound index of 834
A 240 grain .430 diameter at 1400 fps obtains a wound index of 623

The HITS formula is very predictive of real world results

 

[OldBroad44]

@JustSomeGuy-- Useful charts. However all the .44 mag loads they considered are relatively light loads and/or designed for SD against humans. All are HPs. None hard cast. Not even any JSP. And 240gr is the heaviest. Bear loads in .44mag are usually 300 to 340 gr. hard cast. The charts based on theory I skip. I'm using those giving data from real guns.The close as we can come to a bear load is the Federal 240gr Hydro shock JHP. So I'll discuss that. Velocities are from the chart. Energies are my caculations.

First, note that the 4" SW 629 MT. Gun at 1094 fps and 638 ft. lbs. is not giving .44 mag performance. That's .357 mag or 10 mm or .44sp power level. (High end of the power range for all three.)

Now look at the 6.5" SW 629 Classic. At 1296 fps that's 895 ft. lbs. That's more like it. That's within the 800-1200 ft. lbs. that's the common range for standard .44mag shot from full size guns.

Finally, notice the numbers for the two SW 629 Performance Center guns, one slightly under and one slightly over 5". These are at 1227 fps and 1256 fps and 802 ft. lbs. and 841 ft. lbs respectively. That's .44 mag performance, but just barely.

There's also variation between models and individual guns within models. Seems to me that 5.5" Rugers often give velocities as high as 6 or 6.5" 629s for example. Especially older SA Rugers.

 

[Lennie]

Here are two great articles on handgun barrel lengths and velocities

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Dispelling Myths: Barrel Length vs. Velocity

So you think a handgun with a slightly longer barrel than another will always generate greater muzzle velocity? Guess again.

www.shootingillustrated.com

Muzzle Velocity VS. Barrel Length - American Handgunner

Just how much muzzle velocity is lost as we shorten a barrel? Most shooters respond with 50 fps per inch. Is this actually true? When working on an article on the merits of the S&W 4" .44 Magnum for our sister publication GUNS, I came up with some hard numbers comparing the short-barreled .44...

americanhandgunner.com

When I was young, I thought long barrels in wheel guns were the answer. I have learned, with age and some more wisdom, a perfect packing wheel is 5" or less.

I have also learned to love the 45 Colt. It does everything better than a 44 mag.

Writings | linebaughsixguns

www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com

 

[OldBroad44]

@Lennie : I agree that .45 Colt does everything better than .44mag...if you reload. Or are happy with very wimpy .45 Colt and .45 +P, which gives you high end .44 mag performance with a fatter bullet. And don't need intermediate loads. I don't reload. And I've been unable to find commercial loads in the intermediate range, the 800 to 1000 ft. lb. range-- my favorite range for woods carry. If I reloaded I'd probably be OldBroad45 instead of OldBroad44.

 

[OldBroad44]

@Lennie -- The HITS equation is new to me. Thanks!

I like the equation for kinetic energy not just for giving some insight into the effect on an animal but also some insight into recoil. However, I think HITS will do a better job of guest mating impact on animals. In the kinetuc energy equation, KE is a linear function of bullet weight and a function if the square of velocity. In the HITS equation the impact is a linear function of velocity and a function of the square of bullet weight. That is, in the estimating impact on an animal, with HITS you count bullet weight more and velocity less than with the kinetic energy equation. And this solves a major anomaly with predictions on effect in animals based on kinetic energy. Namely, it has long been obvious that .44sp and .45 Colt have killing ability out of proportion to the predictions based on kinetic energy. That is, the use of kinetic energy to predict effect on animals is way off for heavy slow moving bullets.

Both equations just yield guestimates of effect on animals, though. Neither, for example, has any variable for bullet shape or style. and a heavy round nose bullet can slip through an animal while doing little damage. And a JHP can be more or less effective than a flat nose depending on the animal.

 

[American123]

The shorter barrel would make it easier to carry, it just would, even if it's only a bit more than an inch, but you also cant deny that ballistically a pistol round like the .44 mag benefits from the longer barrel.

I would do 10mm in an G20 over a .44 mag, but if I had to carry a .44 mag I'd want to take advantage of the ballistics and have a 6 inch barrel.

edit: ballistics by the inch tells us pretty much what I said:

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .44 Mag Results

(statement of intent)

www.ballisticsbytheinch.com

With a 4 inch barrel a 44 mag (depending on ammo and loading) isn't doing anything the 10mm cant do (depending on ammo and loading) for example, the Speer 200 grain clocking just over 1000 fps in 44 mag out of the 4 inch barrel. My Glock 20 with 200 grain noslers HP's did that with a manageable loading of Accurate #7, but the difference is the Glock 20 holds 15+1 rounds.

Ultimately if you aren't chasing "optimum ballistics" it just comes down to personal preference. Despite my affection for 10mm I still carry 9mm because I figure it to be good enough and I have practiced far more shooting it than the 10mm I used to carry.

 

[The Heretic]

With a 4 inch barrel a 44 mag (depending on ammo and loading) isn't doing anything the 10mm cant do (depending on ammo and loading) for example, the Speer 200 grain clocking just over 1000 fps in 44 mag out of the 4 inch barrel. My Glock 20 with 200 grain noslers HP's did that with a manageable loading of Accurate #7, but the difference is the Glock 20 holds 15+1 rounds.

Find me a 10mm load with a 275 -300gr JSP load at 1100-1200 fps

I need to chrono these loads in my 329, but they were advertised at 1200 fps from a 6" barrel.

For brown bears and dangerous animals with heavy muscle/bones, it is momentum/mass that is needed to penetrate/break bones and stop them.

 

[Spitpatch]

I like this one...

View attachment 979133

"' 'Scuse me while I whip this out:"

 

[oremike]

IMHO you can hand tailor a pet load any way you like. Got a short barrel then a faster powder might work better. Want a bone crushing load, then a heavy bullet might work better. There is no free lunch though, a light firearm with a fast load and light bullet will have a shorter recoil impulse and will be perceived to have a sharper recoil. I feel this type of recoil in my wrist and don't care for it. That being said, a heavy bullet at a more modest velocity in a heavier firearm even though the math says that it makes the same or more energy I feel in my shoulders and upper body and is much more pleasant for me to shoot. So what I have is a 6" S&W 629 and the load I like for it is a 300gr TC at about 1200 FPS.

 

[American123]

Find me a 10mm load with a 275 -300gr JSP load at 1100-1200 fps

I need to chrono these loads in my 329, but they were advertised at 1200 fps from a 6" barrel.

For brown bears and dangerous animals with heavy muscle/bones, it is momentum/mass that is needed to penetrate/break bones and stop them.

Firstly - we are talking about a 4 inch barrel, not a 6 inch barrel and you'll find the fps is very different.
Secondly - ammo box velocity claims are often inaccurate.
Thirdly - I don't see anything I wrote refuted by anything you wrote, if anything, what I originally wrote is agreed with by what you wrote.

 

[Longwalkhome]

What did Elmer Keith carry?