Military Contracts: complete rifles or enlisted gunsmiths or make them in-house

[wired]

The government doesnt build rifles by parts kits. I was a unit armorer and at that level its just inspecting and minor repairs. After that it goes to depot level and thats more troubleshooting. The military doesnt emply people to build things. It would cost more to have people who were full time assemblers. Keep in mind that most of that sort of non combat stuff is handled by civil service civilians who would be under union contracts.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

MIL-SPEC- best part for the cheapest price.

 

[trevi]

Okay. I'll play the devils advocate on this, and/or for futher discussion...

I have a couple different Ordnance MOS's. I have been to DS, GS, and Depot facilities, and have attended a couple schools at Aberdeen Proving Ground. The logistics of supporting the weapons used throughout the military is unbelievably huge. In addition to that, think of all the Jeeps, the HumVees, the desks, the file cabinets, the clinics, the Aircraft Control Towers, the ships, the helicopters... the examples are endless. They all require a support system. Maintenance, supply, transportation, training, MOS testing, it is endless, and if a person hasn't experienced it, there is no way to imagine it.

If we now have Ordnance folks assembling weapons from parts, where will these facilities be housed? Will each of the ten divisions have their own assemblers? Will the assemblers work for a Corps, or for an Army? (Groups of Divisions and groups of Corps'). And when a Division changes locations or is split up, do the assemblers move with the Division? And stand-alone Brigades and Battle Groups, do they have assemblers or do they have to find a Division or Garrison to get their weapons.

And assembling weapons from parts, how far into it do we go? Are these fellers only doing simple assembly, or are they machining parts, staking parts, and pressing parts? How about Parkerizing? Who's gonna do that?

And then, the many thousands of civilians that work for the weapons manufacturers, they'll go on unemployment because a Private will now be assembling the new weapons. How many more Private's will we have to hire? And when the world blows up and these Private's are called away to defend a perimeter, who's building the weapons?

These examples may seem far-fetched. They are not. The logistics now are so cumbersome, unmanageable and extensive, adding more logistics to build weapons could make the whole system finally tip over.

And while we've got Private's building weapons to save money, how many high dollar General's will now be needed to oversee all this?

And since building our own weapons was easy, we may as well start building our own wheeled vehicles, and aircraft, and ships.

This is only food for thought.


.



.

You make a sound argument. I do not know how the military is run. Those i know who are officers do not talk about squat.
I guess i have a nag about the government and military crazy spending.

 

[wired]

You make a sound argument. I do not know the military is run. Those i know who are officers do not talk about squat.
I guess i have a nag about the government and military crazy spending.

There is no incentive to save money in the military. If anything there is heavy pressure to use up whats in your budget or you don't get as much the next year. Thats real.

 

[FourFront]

Very few unit's have unit armorers qualified to do full rifle builds. When you get to that point you are looking at highly specialized units. Not your run of the mill combat arms units.

Additionally most unit armorers are low level (E-4 and below) supply clerks (92Y). A unit armorer is only "qualified" to replace small items. Once you get in to more complicated pieces you are looking at your next level of support such as the division support units. Beyond that is depot, and if something goes to depot, then it's a full refurb of that piece, and you would just receive a replacement. You would not ever see that actual piece of equipment back.

As stated before, a lot of depot level work is done by civilian contractors. This is actually better as many of these individuals are long term, and you are maintaining a certain level of proficiency and standards over time.

I did some logistic contract work in Iraq, and while many people think that this should be done purely by the military. The benefit was that our management and in many cases our staff were more consistent in the long run while the military command over us rotated out constantly. Our presence ensured that the logistical task never really received any hiccup and was done correctly the entire time without having to re-invent the wheel every time a new command rotated in.

 

[WAYNO]

I do not know [how] the military is run....
I guess i have a nag about the government and military crazy spending.

So, to wake up one day and decide you don't like how the military is run, and how they spend their money...

It is a battle that cannot be changed by lowly citizens. Civilians have no say in any of it. But, civilians can replace the Congress-people that control the military and waste money in so many other places. But no. These folks are continually re-elected, and then the voters bellyache why nothing ever changes. This applies to state, local, and school politics also.








.

 

[trevi]

So, for a Jody, to wake up one day and decide you don't like how the military is run, and how they spend their money...

It is an uphill battle that cannot be won by lowly citizens. Civilians have no say in any of it. But, civilians can replace the Congress-people that control the military and waste money in so many other places. But no. These folks are continually re-elected, and then the voters bellyache why nothing ever changes.

Well, shortly before i studied medicine i earned a degree in Foreign Policy to compliment my International Business degree as i wanted to work for an embassy somewhere in the world. I learned i have no patience for beauracracy and soon found myself in a different kind of beauracracy - medicine; it is all the same. I should have studied maths and lived in a cave like Fermat, or become the next John Nash.
My point is, i have loosely followed the news regarding government spending and deals to corporations and other countries, the debt and spending annoys me so much. I guess on the bright side, we have the greatest purchasing power in all the world.

 

[Ura-Ki]

There is no incentive to save money in the military. If anything there is heavy pressure to use up whats in your budget or you don't get as much the next year. Thats real.

Troof!
Every Feb. we would have to go burn through a bunch of consumables like Fuel and Ammo, or next budget cycle, we wouldn't have the same amount available! Pallets of ammo were ether shot off or destroyed, fuel was used for increased flight training, or for firefighting excersizes and a whole bunch of other stuff got used up or destroyed! Imagine running like this year in and year out, then one year you get a war going, and suddenly realize you may not have enough! Couldn't stock pile any of it, we already had our "Strategic Reserve" which never actually got used, but dammit, we had it, just in case some star showed up to inspect for readiness! So, we had to get our yearly budget approved or else!

 

[Hueco]

Well, shortly before i studied medicine i earned a degree in Foreign Policy to compliment my International Business degree as i wanted to work for an embassy somewhere in the world. I learned i have no patience for beauracracy and soon found myself in a different kind of beauracracy - medicine; it is all the same. I should have studied maths and lived in a cave like Fermat, or become the next John Nash.
My point is, i have loosely followed the news regarding government spending and deals to corporations and other countries, the debt and spending annoys me so much. I guess on the bright side, we have the greatest purchasing power in all the world.

If you've the chops to be the next John Nash then, please, stop everything you're doing and go solve for a replacement for the economic incentive structure that currently plagues our government bureaucracy at all levels.

Seriously, this is a multi-trillion dollar, Nobel Prize problem to be solved.

Try not to be schizophrenic though. That had to be absolutely terrible and terrifying.

 

[Nibbs]

Mike Bigler worked behind a desk at The Armor School at Ft Knox alongside some civilians.
Their section had a quarterly Allotment following that same pattern above.
IF ALL the money didn't get spent, then the balance was carried forward & also Deducted from the next quarter's allotment making that amount the Total number.

His CO Gave him the card for the "Country Store" & told him to
"Spend it all, dodn't care what you buy, I just don't want to see any of it here."

Mike showed me his LOOT;
1967 Olds 442: Trunk and back seat filled to the brim w/ Quality tools at HUGE DISCOUNTS
compared to what you would pay at any retail outlet...

And THAT was the Norm....

 

[trevi]

So, to wake up one day and decide you don't like how the military is run, and how they spend their money...

It is a battle that cannot be changed by lowly citizens. Civilians have no say in any of it. But, civilians can replace the Congress-people that control the military and waste money in so many other places. But no. These folks are continually re-elected, and then the voters bellyache why nothing ever changes. This applies to state, local, and school politics also.








.

Thanks for cathcing my typo!

 

[Sarchet]

I guess what I am trying to ask is if it would be best if the military enlisted gunsmiths (or trained them) VERSUS making contracts with certain gun manufactures (Colt) OR make them in-house? In my little understanding is that companies like: R-Guns, LMT, DPMS, and many more I may not know about, were 'parts' companies that supplied DOJ and military before becoming complete gun manufacturers. It seems to me that the military is overzealous with its spending on small arms. ARs are easy to build and if they are going to use polymer framed guns, they too, are easy to build. Whoever does the funding approval needs to hire an accountant to figure out some savings for small arms.

Anyone in agreement OR disagreement?

For a variety of reasons, the days of government arsenals being the primary arms suppliers to Western militaries has passed. The giants of yesteryear are gone, shut down or privatized. The only way this will change is if private business becomes unable to supply what the military needs, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[Nibbs]

For a variety of reasons, the days of government arsenals being the primary arms suppliers to Western militaries has passed. The giants of yesteryear are gone, shut down or privatized. The only way this will change is if private business becomes unable to supply what the military needs, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

And What was it Ike said in his Farewell address...??

And What 1 WORD got scratched from the Original Draft that HE WROTE???!!!