Might be a new-to-me Whitworth on the horizon........

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tac

tac

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Ok - I figured out how to search past auctions and dug it up. Contrary data stamped all over the thing - Made in Birmingham, made in Italy, Navy Arms, Parker Hale, Pedersoli...

What you showed me is a perfectly normal post break-up Parker-Hale barrelled 'assemblage' by Navy Arms, successors to Euroarms, in Italy, with Gardone Val Trompia proof marks. As I mentioned before, ALL genuine P-H barrels had run out by about 14000 or so.

The serial number is NOT any kind of P-H serial number. Apart from H in front of the serial number, denoting Henry rifling in the two and three band Volunteer rifles, P-H used nothing but numbers.

The Pedersoli stamping is a mystery, since Pedersoli did not make any kind of a Whitworth replication until around four years ago. I note that - 'Year of Manufacture: 2015 (CL Date Code), ATF Antique'.

Well, see Signore Pedersoli Jnr announcing it on October 27, 2016 -


The colour cased barrel bands are pure fiction - the P-H are blacked.

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Also note, for future reference - that the correct form of the designation is Whitworth's Patent Rifling - however, this also appears on the Pedersoli version.

As I said before - get a REAL P-H with as early a serial number as you can find.

THIS is another Parker-Hale lockplate belonging, at the moment, to a friend - note that the colour case hardening is done properly with bone meal, and it is as hard as heck. The follow-ons are surface-infused, and can be scraped off with a bit of fingernail...also that this early, they had no clean-out screw in the nipple bolster, but by 888, my rifle, they had.

1605995345633.png

Be glad you missed this one, and keep looking - you won't be disappointed in the end, trust me.

Keep talking to me about it, though..................I have a LOT of 'shooting Whitworth' stuff.
 
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Thanks, Tac! I'm really glad you're on my side.

As for the 'one that got away' - it did look pretty. REAL pretty. But I was just getting a feel for the market, though might have jumped in had it gone no higher than 900 or a grand. I just didn't know enough about them yet - but with your help I'm slowly coming up to speed.

You say they can be finicky shooters. Are they less finicky with round slugs rather than hex? Looks like with soft lead they wind up conforming to the barrel and sealing up anyway.
 

Wombat of Doom

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Wow. I have loved the whitworth since as a kid I got to see and hold an original, ACW. I will keep the info in mind as I do not believe unless I get incredibly lucky, I will ever own or shoot an original. (If anybody here owns one and wants to let me take a shot... ...I'm in)

Love the info TAC.
 
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tac

tac

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Thanks, Tac! I'm really glad you're on my side.

As for the 'one that got away' - it did look pretty. REAL pretty. But I was just getting a feel for the market, though might have jumped in had it gone no higher than 900 or a grand. I just didn't know enough about them yet - but with your help I'm slowly coming up to speed.

You say they can be finicky shooters. Are they less finicky with round slugs rather than hex? Looks like with soft lead they wind up conforming to the barrel and sealing up anyway.
If by the use of the word 'slugs' you mean an elongated cylindro-conoidal bullet made of soft lead, then yes, as I showed in my photo a few posts back. It is important to use card wads, or, in some cases, if you can get them, the thick felt wads that you grease up. Here they are sold by Peter Dyson and are about 3/8th thick. I use a hex wad cutter and 'one-side shiny' cardboard, like the stuff you get when you buy a new shirt - or used to. Two of those does the job, I find.

As I note, they ARE finicky, no matter what shape bullet you are using, and need a regime of loading and then wiping before you shoot it.

BTW, thanks for the link. I'm sending it to Signore Pedersoli to see if he can throw any light on a gun with so many marks, including his own trademark, that appears to have been made before his product was even announced by his son. I'm a mite concerned that apart from the 'Navy Arms' - usually a sign that it came from Dixie Gun works in TN - it is EXACTLY like the later Pedersoli product.

V. odd.
 
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If by the use of the word 'slugs' you mean an elongated cylindro-conoidal bullet made of soft lead, then yes, as I showed in my photo a few posts back.
Yup, that's what I meant. A bullet to me is the complete assembly of lead, brass, powder and primer. Is slug incorrect for just the lead?

BTW, thanks for the link. I'm sending it to Signore Pedersoli to see if he can throw any light on a gun with so many marks, including his own trademark. I'm a mite concerned that apart from the 'Navy Arms' - usually a sign that it came from Dixie Gun works in TN, it is EXACTLY a Pedersoli product, at least a year before it was announced by Pedersoli.
You're very welcome! Glad I could help.

Ok - correct me if I'm wrong - but this is how it appears to me, the evolution which lead up to this rifle. Parker Hale had barrels left over when they went out of business. They were stamped with PH on the barrel, but no serial number. So when Dixie took over, they stamped their name on the barrel? And then the next company, and so on.

And what about that ugly circular impression in the stock advertising Parker Hale? Did Parker Hale do that? I'm guessing not.

Please let us know how it goes with Signore Pedersoli. This is a real, true life mystery. :D
 
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tac

tac

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Yes, Parker-Hale folded in the mid-90s', and all their barrels that were breeched had to be proofed before passing them on - UK law.

Those that did NOT that did NOT have breech plugs were simply fancy toobs.

ALL totally Parker-Hale production ceased - with ALL their BP guns, somewhere in the 9000-serials - nobody is certain, although David Minshall, shooting secretary of the MLAGB, is compiling a record of serials, with the help of people like me.

The TOTAL of Parker-Hale's ready-proofed and breeched barrels brought the number up to around 14000 or so. They were, of course, serial numbered - they had to be to have any forensically-traceable and subsequent registration history. A proofed barrel in UK law is a live firearm, complete with wooden bits or not.


The next manufacturers were Euroarms, selling through DGW as Dixie. They used any surviving components, including breeched barrels, until they were all used up at around 14000 or so.

After that................................................................along came Pedersoli in 2016 - they say that they make everything themselves.

So, although they MAY have Parker-Hale on the barrel, they will NOT have been Birmingham-proofed, but Italian. This takes place in the province of Brescia, at the Italian national proof-house in Gardone Val Trompia, as shown by the markings of a a fancy shield. Also compulsory for BG firearms made in Iddly are the stamps denoting black powder proof - PN - [Polvere Nero] and Made in Italy - black powder only, as well as a date code - in a little square cartouche. As well as the makers logo, of course, and name. Italian nitro proof uses the letters PSF - Polvere senza Fumo [powder without smoke]. If, like me, you have a BP-era rifle like a High Wall, then it will bear nitro proof marks, making it totally safe for either nitro or BP. I use both, with great lack of success, in my High Wall.

What you call the ugly Parker-Hale stamp on the butt is a nod to the tradition of putting a similar mark there by the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield Lock - the stamps actually reads R S A F Enfield.

1606063010938.png

Here you see that stamp on the butt of one of my Sniders - rack #275 from the 44th Battalion of Infantry - Welland & Lincoln County Militia. This rifle was used to repel invading Americans disguised as Fenians during the last US invasion of Canada in the late 1860s. The DC in diamond shows that this particular rifle was TOS after July 1st 1867, Canada's founding day.

Like the USA's, but earlier in the month. ;)
 
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The gun that sold on GB must have been made with one of those "fancy toobs" you mention. Pedersoli mounted a breech plug, stamped their name and sent it through the line. I'm starting to get the picture. There's quite a bit to absorb with this story along with the twists (not all hexagonal) and turns, so thanks for being patient with me.

It looks like the Royal Small Arms stamping was smaller and not so obvious. More reserved. Does your PH have the big stamping on the side of the butt? Or is that a Pedersoli thing?

TOS - Terminate on Sight? :p Ok, I give - what's it mean?

Seems this use of acronyms isn't a recent development.

Your number 888 is an early one, then. I assume numbering started at 0001?
 
OP
tac

tac

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The gun that sold on GB must have been made with one of those "fancy toobs" you mention. Pedersoli mounted a breech plug, stamped their name and sent it through the line. I'm starting to get the picture. There's quite a bit to absorb with this story along with the twists (not all hexagonal) and turns, so thanks for being patient with me.

It looks like the Royal Small Arms stamping was smaller and not so obvious. More reserved. Does your PH have the big stamping on the side of the butt? Or is that a Pedersoli thing?

TOS - Terminate on Sight? :p Ok, I give - what's it mean?

Seems this use of acronyms isn't a recent development.

Your number 888 is an early one, then. I assume numbering started at 0001?
TOS = taken on strength/charge - officially acquired by the military and entered on the quartermaster's docs.

The RSAF stamps on my Sniders are is now at least 158 years old - YOU'd have faded a bit into the background by then too.

My number 888 is early but the new rifle is in in the 420s..........................

However, you've missed the point about the stamps - the current production Pedersoli-made rifles do NOT have Parker-Hale on them. Parker-Hale is not just a name in the history books, it is a currently-trading company here in UK. It's like having a Chevrolet with Buick badges as well. The rifle in the link came out at least a year before Pedersoli ANNOUNCED their new rifle. Capisce? Imaginer having a Lincoln penny dated 1855? Or a Pearl Harbour commemorative mail stamp dated 1940?

Parker-Hale butt stamps -
1606066387805.png
 
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So the PH guns have the Parker Hale butt stamps.

Ok - maybe now it's sinking in - Parker Hale made the barrel for the Pedersoli gun I saw. RECENTLY made the barrel.

You know, that raises a few more questions, like - is it possible to get new barrels from PH, or other parts as well???

You might have said previously what a Snider was - but I'm in the dark there. Was it a regiment of sharp shooters?
 
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tac

tac

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Please re-read the posts.

Parker-Hale went bust in around 1992.

Parker-Hale are now involved ONLY with gun-cleaning accoutrements, and have been since about 1996.

The Snider was the first British military service breech-loader, made by hacking off the last four inches of the breech end of the Pattern 53 rifled musket or carbine and putting on a kind of sideways trapdoor action invented by American Jacob Snider. HIS idea was the cheapest around. It didn't last long in British service, but lasted until well into the 1890's in Canadian service - Canada didn't get the Snider's successor, the Martini-Henry [remember the movie 'ZULU!'?] and transitioned straight from the snider to the Lee-Enfield [another American invention by James Parish Lee].

You can see me shooting a two-band Canadian Snider, now mine, in my Youtube movie tac's guns Snider.
 
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I get that Parker Hale went under mid 90s, and now makes gun cleaning stuff.

So how is it that Pedersoli winds up with a Parker Hale barrel on one of their guns? What do you figure happened? Did they take an old Euroarms gun and call it their own? Maybe put their own stock on it? Your thoughts? Suppositions?

Ok - I'm following you now. Snider was the guy who invented the trapdoor action on the Springfield. I considered getting one of those. Supposedly the Snider Enfields are good for 600 yards, but effective even up to 2,000 yards. If true, that's impressive. I'm suddenly interested in your Snider. Originals seem to be fairly reasonably priced too.

I'll check out your movie!
 
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tac

tac

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The P-H barrel on a Pedersoli - a year before production commenced, is MY question to Signore Pedersoli.

The trapdoor Springfield was the invention of Erskine E Allin of the Springfield Armoury - an almost exact copy of the French Tabatiére action.

Liker many older breechloaders, Sniders have their moments, but at least there are positively NO replicas, although IMA DO have access to the so-called Nepal cache. Mine would cost you around $1200 - or so, as they are not only real Enfield-made Sniders, but have family provenance. :p

Ammunition is around $10 a shot if you buy it, by the way.

THE source for Snider stuff is Martyn Spyker of X-Ring services in Spokane WA - THE man for all things Snider. He sells the 24g brass cartridge cases, suitably cut down, as well as two different kinds of bullet mould of the correct Snider form. They are NOT Minié-shaped, but are waisted and with a flat base, and surprisingly, .600cal - most sniders are between .590 and .600cal, so using any kind of .577cal bullet down them is like throwing a bowling ball down a drain pipe.

THE place to see the Snider is on youtube - pal Rob, a fellow Canuckian runs britishmuzzleloaders - all about the Victorian British Army - in correct uniform, with correct weaponry and often multiple-tracked so that he can 'be' a section of men advancing to an enemy, all in the stunning landscape of the Rockies.

Also, take a look at the Alberta shoot on the same channel - lots of mainly muzzleloaders and Martinis, too - this year in the rain :(

And, of course, reloading - and you DON'T need the $250 RCBS die set.
 
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When I looked into the Snider a bit more I could see it operated differently to the trapdoor Springfield. But it sounds like there were a few guys who either came up with the same idea for breech loading around the same time, or one did, and the rest sort of copied the idea in some fashion. I watched a Utube Hickock talking about and shooting the Martini-Henry. Those bullets were $5/each. Ouch. Not sure I'd want to go that route. The trapdoor eats common 45-70 which makes it more appealing.

Reloading sounds like the only way to go with the Snider.

You didn't show us your target after those two shots. But the gun does make a nice boom.
 
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tac

tac

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We shoot a lot, and collect a lot, of Martini-Henrys here, very easy to find, too. The service load is 85gr with a 535gr paper-patched bullet. Cases last forever.

Again, IMA sells guns from the Nepal cache. See Murphey's muskets or iraqveteran888 refurbish them.

I wasn't shooting on my own target- it being somebody else's gun at that point, but I did shoot it later on a different target - ten shots went into around 6 inches or so at 100m.

Reloading is THE way to shoot any of these older guns. The Trapdoor should NOT be shot with anything heavier than 405gr lead - NO jacketed or semi-jacketed bullets. Replicas the same. About 20 years ago Harrington and Richardson made beautiful replicas of the rifle and carbine and a spiffy officer's model too. They had a fabricated latch assembly that had a habit of blowing open when the securing screw 'unsecured'. Nasty. There was a fix applied to later models that prevented this happening - if you find one of these, make sure the fix has been fixed.

Remember - 300gr or 405gr bullets ONLY, and LEAD.
 
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tac

tac

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This might be of interest to some here - from Stephen Brown on Youtube -


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Stephen Brown1 year ago
The Confederate proving ground for the Whitworth rifle was the community of Fairfield, Bedford County, Tennessee prior to the Tullahoma Campaign. A.P. Stewart oversaw the exercises where the best marksmen from the Army of Tennessee were tested and chosen to man the rifled/muskets. From tradition and, oral interviews from descendants of the community and the local SCV in 1979, two weeks of site survey were conducted and, site(s) examined. One known site of the targets was recorded, and a sample sounding of 1 meter square resulted in 20+ fired hexagonal rounds. The distance shot is not known precisely but, estimates vary from 400 yards to 750. The natural contours of the topography lend to many places of POA. Interestingly enough, rounds from 30-06 caliber were also discovered that hailed from the Tennessee Maneuvers and, both period, Civil War and Maneuver camp sites are overlapping... The "backstop" is just a natural site and conclusion to controlled firearms testing and safety.
Show less

It is a comment to this extraordinary shooting of a replica Whitworth rifle -


Thank You, Mr Brown.
 
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OP
tac

tac

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Sometimes I just make myself smile...over on our sister forum, muzzleloadingforum.com, we are having a discussion about the speed of ignition, so I chimed in with a few shots from an old video showing my P-H Whitworth rifle in action, and a P-H Musketoon...hope I didn't screw up the thread by posting them - if so I'll pull them.

These are 1/25th second apart - note the small cloud of smoke at the nipple from the musket cap ignition...that's 90gr of 3Fg under a 600gr bullet. Lively, to say the least.


1606260068400.png 1606260150089.png 1606260186873.png 1606259958141.png
Above is the Musketoon in action - notice that there is still some flash at the nipple while the full charge has well gone off!
And me, shooting it as a demo of how to do it...............load is a 535gr Minié bullet over 60gr of 2Fg..........
 
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Am I correct in assuming flames out the muzzle indicate incomplete combustion? Perhaps fewer grains could be used?

Sure looks cool though.

Maybe the muzzle loader forum should accept all pre 1900 guns since they're exempt from the law here. They're all considered antiques even though they eat cartridge bullets. At least with an argument like that you might keep from being kicked off. LOL

That's some pretty good shootin with the Whitworth. With open sights the front one probably more than hides the target.

I found out that a barreled Sharps action costs around $1700. And then there's the stock and all the work finishing everything up. Not cheap! I think I'll keep my eyes open for a Birmingham Whitworth. Let me know when you spot a good one tac!
 
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tac

tac

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Am I correct in assuming flames out the muzzle indicate incomplete combustion? Perhaps fewer grains could be used?

Sure looks cool though.

Maybe the muzzle loader forum should accept all pre 1900 guns since they're exempt from the law here. They're all considered antiques even though they eat cartridge bullets. At least with an argument like that you might keep from being kicked off. LOL

That's some pretty good shootin with the Whitworth. With open sights the front one probably more than hides the target.

I found out that a barreled Sharps action costs around $1700. And then there's the stock and all the work finishing everything up. Not cheap! I think I'll keep my eyes open for a Birmingham Whitworth. Let me know when you spot a good one tac!
Not flames, just a jet of red-hot gases, and the load is typical of that used for ranges of 900 yards and over. It looks the same even when you reduce the load to 70gr - if you watch capandball shooting his Pedersoli replica in Youtube.

Zonie, the owner and SuperMod of muzzeloadingforum, has set the date and the delineation of the guns that HE wants in HIS forum. Pre-1865 and load down the barrel from the front - no arguments except one - paper-cartridge-loading Sharps seem to be exempt his rules.

Not sure what Sharps barrelled action you mean - most replicas are around that price, but include the wooden bits. It would do you no good for me to look for a Whitworth for you - I live over 4500 miles from you..... :(
 
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Rules rules rules... :D

Just joking - I do understand.

The quote of $1700 for a sharps barreled action was from the factory in Montana.

My problem is figuring out where to look for these things. Where do people sell them? Yeah, I know you're a long ways away, but the net brings us closer and if you see something - please let me know. I'd like to find a long range gun like the Whitworth or a sharps.

I can see the benefit of cartridges where the firing chamber is contained with no blow-back through the nipple.
 
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tac

tac

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You and a hundred other people are looking for a real Parker-Hale Whitworth. Perhaps you might consider the real thing? I dunno, you guys seem to have limitless funds for your toys, collecting vintage airplanes, cars, boats and so on. One guy here wouldn't get out of bed for any gun under ten big ones, it seems.

It takes me all my time to collect my thoughts, let alone a bunch of airplanes.
 

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