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Back in 1986 I bought a Parker-Hale Whitworth rifle in .451 cal - that's a very similar rifle to the one imported by the south during the ACW, handed out to their best shots, and used on high-value targets like senior officers of the Union. General Reynolds was one such victim at Gettysburg, and General Sedgwick at Spottsylvania Courthouse in the Wilderness. Parker-Hale, using the then-latest techniques, replicated the unique hexagonal rifling with its fast twist of 1:22 - a ROT that required the use of a ca.500gr elongated bullet with a matching helical shape to fit the grooves precisely. I was in the habit of getting 1.5 MOA all day long with this rifle and 80gr of 2Fg - right out to 600 yards, at which point my eyeballs gave up on the basic sights fitted to it.

Mine back then was serial #888, and I shot it a lot until my LGS stopped selling black powder over the counter. They are only 15 miles away. The nearest source for the stuff I shoot was then Henry Krank - an almost 300 mile drive there and back to collect the stuff. Disheartened, I gave up on it, and sold it it an eager German gentleman at a good profit.

And now that my LGS is selling BP again, in huge amounts, it seems, I've been offered another Whitworth rifle - this time with a very VERY early serial number - and in near-new condition, too.
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THIS is what it shoots - a 500gr swaged flat-base 30:1 alloy lead and tin bullet made from a Dave Corbin press by the Polisar Brothers of Albuquerque NM.

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I think I'd be crazy to let this one go by at the price he's asking, even though I'm going to have to get rid of another rifle to be permitted to get this one...
 
Genuine Birmingham-made Parker-Hale with serial number below 9000 - up to $1000.

1603880462063.png

Italian version by Euroarms - $750.

Pedersoli version - $1300.

Genuine article NOT ACW provenance - $10-15000.

Genuine article WITH ACW provenance - $100K - skywards. With a Davidson scope - ca. $500K.

I have a lot of experience with this type of rifle, if I can help/advise.
 
Not knowing the OP from Adam, I don't know if he knows that the modern replication a so-called Whitworth rifle is categorically NOT intended to replicate the weapon used in your recent inter-necine war.

The modern replications - Parker-Hale/Euroarms-Navy Arms or Pedersoli - are copies of a three-band match rifle of the kind used by the marksmen of the Volunteer units that were so popular here in UK at around the same time as your war with each other.

Here is mine for reference -

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Those Whitworth rifles that went to the Confederacy, direct from the Manchester factory of Sir Joseph Whitworth, were ALL B- grade rifles with alphabetic letters in front of the serial numbers - all of which, on found examples, are less than 1000. In fact, although there is some doubt in the matter, although Confederate records mention the purchase of some 250 of them, less than a quarter of that number have been identified. The still awaited book by Dr DeWitt Bailey and Bill Curtis might shed some more light on the story.....

Here is an article about the real thing, sold back in 2002 for $73600 - IMPORTANT AND EXTREMELY RARE WHITWORTH CONFEDERATE SNIPER RIFLE. - James D. Julia, Auctioneers

...and here is an image of the real thing -

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This is B303 - note the unusual patch-box, probably used as a cap box - the Whitworth bullet goes nekkid into the muzzle.


That went for around $30K. at Julia's Auctions.

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tac said:

Genuine Birmingham-made Parker-Hale with serial number below 9000 - up to $1000.
Italian version by Euroarms - $750.
Pedersoli version - $1300.

Does this mean the Pedersoli is best, followed by the Parker-Hale and then EuroArms?

I've seen photos of the Pedersoli and it appears to be a very high quality piece. How do the others compare?

Where in Oregon are you? I'm in the Portland area.
 
tac said:

Genuine Birmingham-made Parker-Hale with serial number below 9000 - up to $1000.
Italian version by Euroarms - $750.
Pedersoli version - $1300.

Does this mean the Pedersoli is best, followed by the Parker-Hale and then EuroArms?

I've seen photos of the Pedersoli and it appears to be a very high quality piece. How do the others compare?

Where in Oregon are you? I'm in the Portland area.

On Youtube, capandball, the Hungarian national BP rifle shooter, organiser of the MLAIC, doctor of military history and all-round bon oeuf, touts the Pedersoli products, BUT, Signore Pedersoli Snr thinks of him as a son, and capandball's store in Budapest is the main Pedersoli dealership in that part of the world. so he thinks it's best, without making any kind of comparative test.

OTOH, the Parker-Hale version was not only the first replication ANYWHERE of a hexagonal-bored Victorian match rifle, but also used the original jigs and gauges for the original Enfield rifle, borrowed on long-term loan from the Ministry of Defence Small Arms Pattern Room. I helped check the many precious components when they finally got returned in the late 90's.

As a result of these FACTS, the Parker-Hale muzzle-loaders are generally held to be THE definitive successors to the original guns and will ALWAYS fetch top dollar - IF you can find one. I've known shooters over here and in the USA spend a lot of time trying to find one.

On the other tentacle, I've seen Pedersoli versions of this iconic rifle that are somewhat less than impressive, given the cost, with poor wood-to-metal fit, and locks that interfere with the barrel, as well as ill-fitting nose-caps. An acquaintance of mine, 'dungspreader' in Peace River BC, seems to have bought a Friday Pedersoli - see his exploits on Youtube.

It's entirely up to you how you spend your hard-earned $$$, but remember that ANY Parker-Hale you might find - IF it has a less than 9000 serial number, is going to be around thirty years old - mine is 36, BTW. The Pedersoli version is probably just fine for most people, but I've not seen one in any kind of competition over here. Remember, too, that Mr capandball is THE #1 BP rifle shooter for his nation, and ranks VERY highly in world ratings. His shooting and mine are similar, in that he does the same things that I do, it's just that HE does them all so much better.

Bear in mind that the Whitworth rifle has always been something of a prima donna in the shooting world. It is finicky to load and shoot, and to get the best results needs a clean after each and every shot, as well as post-loading, even before your shot goes off. I have the details on all this, obtained from the foremost Whitworth shooters on your side of the Atlantic, the Polisar Brothers of Garden Grove CA, who have had great success with their rifles both on the range and in the field. Using a set of swaging dies from Dave Corbin, they made some awesomely beautiful 600 and 500gr hex bullets with flat bases that shot amazingly well out to about 1000 yards, which is as far as I ever shot my rifle, which has open sights, and not the spiffy tang sights more often seen. At anything between 300 and 600 yards, it really was more or less like shooting a good hunting rifle with 1.5 - 2 MOA easily achievable - IF you do it right. If you want, I'll post the loading details here for you to see what is entailed.

1604139015188.png
Polisar bullet........yumyum............

It WILL, of course, shoot a cylindrical bullet almost as well, which is not only easier to make and find moulds for, but hugely cheaper - the Polisar bullets were around $1.50 each back then... During your recent civil war sharpshooters used such round cross-section bullets - many have been found as battlefield pick-ups, as well as the horrendously rare and costy real hex versions.

You CAN cast your own hex bullets, but NOT with this device - the Dyson replication of an original such mould. It costs around $400 and makes an approximately-shootable style of bullet - about once out of ten... I'm told that the NEW- York mould maker, Mr Romero, whose moulds were around $400 twenty years ago, is no longer with us DGW actually cast and sell the hex bullets, but I have no idea of their efficacy.

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Dyson three-piece mould.

Here's what a few bullets look like -

1604139249446.png
1. Polisar 600gr bullet and 2. recovered from the 600 yard backstop.

3. Dyson bullet and 4. recovered from the same backstop.

5. Paper-patched Metford hard-cast bullet - NOT suitable for shooting in a Whitworth [too hard]. and

6. A cylindro-conoidal Lyman 535gr mult-groove bullet fired from a Whitworth. As you can see, it has conformed to the general shape of the bore - no wonder, after getting that 'kick up the Khyber' from the 90gr load of 3Fg.

And lastly, another expense, but VERY worthwhile. Because of the design of the high-pressure breeching, and the relatively large loads, the Whitworth, and indeed, any similar match rifle of the same style, will eat nipples at a frightening rate - I've had one example last me just thirty-five shots before the gun began blowing the hammer back on me. Get a platinum-lined version - mine is still working after at least a couple of thousand shots.

BTW, I live most of the year in the top NW corner of Cambridgeshire, England, but that's not my fault.
 
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A Parker Hale Pedersoli just sold on Gun Broker for $1325. It looked pretty nice in the photos.

What's the story on them? Are they a Pedersoli kit finished up by Parker Hale?

Thanks for the FB link. I applied for membership.
 
On Youtube, capandball, the Hungarian national BP rifle shooter, organiser of the MLAIC, doctor of military history and all-round bon oeuf, touts the Pedersoli products, BUT, Signore Pedersoli Snr thinks of him as a son, and capandball's store in Budapest is the main Pedersoli dealership in that part of the world. so he thinks it's best, without making any kind of comparative test.

OTOH, the Parker-Hale version was not only the first replication ANYWHERE of a hexagonal-bored Victorian match rifle, but also used the original jigs and gauges for the original Enfield rifle, borrowed on long-term loan from the Ministry of Defence Small Arms Pattern Room. I helped check the many precious components when they finally got returned in the late 90's.

As a result of these FACTS, the Parker-Hale muzzle-loaders are generally held to be THE definitive successors to the original guns and will ALWAYS fetch top dollar - IF you can find one. I've known shooters over here and in the USA spend a lot of time trying to find one.

On the other tentacle, I've seen Pedersoli versions of this iconic rifle that are somewhat less than impressive, given the cost, with poor wood-to-metal fit, and locks that interfere with the barrel, as well as ill-fitting nose-caps. An acquaintance of mine, 'dungspreader' in Peace River BC, seems to have bought a Friday Pedersoli - see his exploits on Youtube.

It's entirely up to you how you spend your hard-earned $$$, but remember that ANY Parker-Hale you might find - IF it has a less than 9000 serial number, is going to be around thirty years old - mine is 36, BTW. The Pedersoli version is probably just fine for most people, but I've not seen one in any kind of competition over here. Remember, too, that Mr capandball is THE #1 BP rifle shooter for his nation, and ranks VERY highly in world ratings. His shooting and mine are similar, in that he does the same things that I do, it's just that HE does them all so much better.

Bear in mind that the Whitworth rifle has always been something of a prima donna in the shooting world. It is finicky to load and shoot, and to get the best results needs a clean after each and every shot, as well as post-loading, even before your shot goes off. I have the details on all this, obtained from the foremost Whitworth shooters on your side of the Atlantic, the Polisar Brothers of Garden Grove CA, who have had great success with their rifles both on the range and in the field. Using a set of swaging dies from Dave Corbin, they made some awesomely beautiful 600 and 500gr hex bullets with flat bases that shot amazingly well out to about 1000 yards, which is as far as I ever shot my rifle, which has open sights, and not the spiffy tang sights more often seen. At anything between 300 and 600 yards, it really was more or less like shooting a good hunting rifle with 1.5 - 2 MOA easily achievable - IF you do it right. If you want, I'll post the loading details here for you to see what is entailed.

View attachment 770129
Polisar bullet........yumyum............

It WILL, of course, shoot a cylindrical bullet almost as well, which is not only easier to make and find moulds for, but hugely cheaper - the Polisar bullets were around $1.50 each back then... During your recent civil war sharpshooters used such round cross-section bullets - many have been found as battlefield pick-ups, as well as the horrendously rare and costy real hex versions.

You CAN cast your own hex bullets, but NOT with this device - the Dyson replication of an original such mould. It costs around $400 and makes an approximately-shootable style of bullet - about once out of ten... I'm told that the NEW- York mould maker, Mr Romero, whose moulds were around $400 twenty years ago, is no longer with us DGW actually cast and sell the hex bullets, but I have no idea of their efficacy.

View attachment 770130
Dyson three-piece mould.

Here's what a few bullets look like -

View attachment 770131
1. Polisar 600gr bullet and 2. recovered from the 600 yard backstop.

3. Dyson bullet and 4. recovered from the same backstop.

5. Paper-patched Metford hard-cast bullet - NOT suitable for shooting in a Whitworth [too hard]. and

6. A cylindro-conoidal Lyman 535gr mult-groove bullet fired from a Whitworth. As you can see, it has conformed to the general shape of the bore - no wonder, after getting that 'kick up the Khyber' from the 90gr load of 3Fg.

And lastly, another expense, but VERY worthwhile. Because of the design of the high-pressure breeching, and the relatively large loads, the Whitworth, and indeed, any similar match rifle of the same style, will eat nipples at a frightening rate - I've had one example last me just thirty-five shots before the gun began blowing the hammer back on me. Get a platinum-lined version - mine is still working after at least a couple of thousand shots.

BTW, I live most of the year in the top NW corner of Cambridgeshire, England, but that's not my fault.

Wow ...what a clinic and firearms history here. I know nothing about BP now.
 
A Parker Hale Pedersoli just sold on Gun Broker for $1325. It looked pretty nice in the photos.

What's the story on them? Are they a Pedersoli kit finished up by Parker Hale? Thanks for the FB link. I applied for membership.

Sir, it is either a Parker-Hale, or it is a Pedersoli - it can not be both.

The Parker-Hale version is the original replication, from the late-70's to the end of the 80's. The Pedersoli is an all-new replication within the last three years or so. Look for it on Youtube and you can see young Signore Pedersoli announcing it at IWA in 2016, and capandball - AKA Dr Balász Németh - shooting it.

It is NOT now, and never can be, compared to the Parker-Hale-made version, IMO and that of the many hundreds of P-H shooters.

It's your $$$$, but I would go looking seriously for a GENUINE Parker-Hale version as I noted, with a serial number below 9000.

After that, the barrels and some/most lock parts were used by Navy Arms then Euroarms in Iddly. They WILL have proper, genuinely Birmingham-made and proofed barrels, but they all ran out at around #14000.

After that there is totally NO Parker-Hale component of any kind. Here in UK there are small hoards of genuine P-H parts - Peter Dyson and Henry Krank are the main proponents. Dyson makes a platinum-lined nipple that seems to last for eternity - just as well, at about $150.

As for a Pedersoli kit - there is no such animal for this rifle. Parker-Hale went tits-up in the early 90's and sold all their muzzleloading parts to Navy Arms/Euroarms in Iddly. Parker-Hale now make accessories for gun-cleaning.

Please don't give any credence to the tide of carp that is appearing on your side of the Great Water, where most people are not aware of the ultimate shenannigins of P-H in its long and distinguished history in the Birmingham gun-trade.

Whinemeal, I'd be grateful if you could point me at the gun in question. TVM.
 
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Thanks for the education, Tac. Much appreciated!

If you see a PH for sale, could you let me know? I don't really know where to even look for one.

I requested membership in the FB Whitworth group a couple weeks ago but nothing happened. I put in a new request just now.

Ok - the Gun sold on Gun Broker must not have been a Parker Hale, even though it said so on the barrel. Must be a trick, since Pedersoli was stamped right after.
 
Thanks for the education, Tac. Much appreciated!

If you see a PH for sale, could you let me know? I don't really know where to even look for one.

I requested membership in the FB Whitworth group a couple weeks ago but nothing happened. I put in a new request just now.

Ok - the Gun sold on Gun Broker must not have been a Parker Hale, even though it said so on the barrel. Must be a trick, since Pedersoli was stamped right after.

Please send pics if you can find it - The Pedersoli 'Whitworth' has 'Whitworth' stamped on the lock, but NOT any kind of Parker-Hale. Over here we keep records of these guns by P-H. This might be an attempt at some kind of frawk.
 
Tac - the auction on Gun Broker where the Whitworth was listed ended a couple weeks ago. I tried, but can't pull up completed auctions. But I can tell you with certainty, the stamping on the barrel was parker hale and right after was pedersoli.

On GB right now is a used Pedersoli Whitworth and in this photo you can see stamped into the right side of the butt Parker Hale. Seems kind of tacky to me - ruins a pretty stock.


I'll keep trying and see if I can figure out how to recover ended auctions.
 
I am happy for you the government/queen/whomever permitted you to have it. I know governments have to be careful to control potential uprisings of black powder rifle wielding mobs.

I have nineteen more rifles, and apart from a couple of nice Canadian sniders, they are all nitro. You gots some strange ideas about the queen letting us have anything - all that business came to a head, so to speak, when the republicans under Cromwell chopped off King Charles' head back in 1649. Since those days the monarch has no power over law.
 

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