Michigan School Shooting. Hope No AR15 or 10+ Mags Were Involved

[Mikej]

Question - how is everybody with charging the parents ?

Is the general consensus it was justified and the right thing to do - AND that (from a news article):

Charging James and Jennifer Crumbly in this case serves as a wake-up call to parents and other gun owners that they need to be more responsible when it comes to safeguarding their weapons.

Just wanting forum member opinions as I am getting 'mixed messages' from people I talk to, and stories I read.

I was full on "Nail the parents" at the beginning even though I didn't have every little fine point. I'm not sure now though after hearing the reasonings from people way smarter than me. I do believe the kid should get the death penalty, for real, and not in 25 years. There's got to be a REAL punishment for such heinous behavior.

What if the parents gave him the keys to the car telling him to run an errand for them instead? And he proceeded to flip out and drive onto the playground of an elementary school and ended up with the same results? Should the parents really get ZERO punishment for buying a hand gun for a 15 year old, giving him unlimited access to it?

 

[Xaevian]

Question - how is everybody with charging the parents ?

Is the general consensus it was justified and the right thing to do - AND that (from a news article):

Charging James and Jennifer Crumbly in this case serves as a wake-up call to parents and other gun owners that they need to be more responsible when it comes to safeguarding their weapons.

Just wanting forum member opinions as I am getting 'mixed messages' from people I talk to, and stories I read.

Depends upon the laws of MI.
I would prefer them not treated like Rittenhouse and charged with something that isn't actually against MI law. If there is an applicable law, then yes.

 

[Cavedweller]

But for people like the Crumbly's the calculation is different because they are never going to spend the money on defense attorneys (public defender) or bail (remain locked up), or a civil suit (because their misconduct was not intentional they can probably bankrupt the civil case in a Chapter 7). Their homeowner's insurance will likely pay for civil defense of the negligence/wrongful death case. The insurer would however just pay policy limits and bow out of the mess. They won't have any assets to worry about being levied. Even in Chapter 7 bankruptcies they would be allowed to keep some property.

I understand the point you were making that it would have been wise to spend the money securing the gun. If they were rational, honorable people then they would have been spending money on the overdue child support instead of on a new Sig. Humans are frequently not rational actors, as we all know.

These people are not poor. According to one of the baby mamas the dude had a 6 figure income.

 

[bkroger86]

Depends upon the laws of MI.
I would prefer them not treated like Rittenhouse and charged with something that isn't actually against MI law. If there is an applicable law, then yes.

The law is involuntary manslaughter, which is basically manslaughter caused by gross negligence.

Details here: https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/in...hooting-suspects-parents-are-charged-with.amp

The prosecutor must believe they have a high probability of success based on the evidence they have.

 

[awshoot]

These people are not poor. According to one of the baby mamas the dude had a 6 figure income.

Where's my salt shaker??

 

[solv3nt]

The prosecutor must believe they have a high probability of success based on the evidence they have.

Not necessarily... Look at Rittenhouse.

 

[Cavedweller]

Where's my salt shaker??

I give up. Where did you put it?

 

[awshoot]

I give up. Where did you put it?

I don't know, but I need a grain of salt from it before I take the word of an ex from 15 years ago about how rich he is now. LOL

 

[ilikegunspdx]

The law is involuntary manslaughter, which is basically manslaughter caused by gross negligence.

Details here: https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/in...hooting-suspects-parents-are-charged-with.amp

The prosecutor must believe they have a high probability of success based on the evidence they have.

Good article. Seems to me there is not enough detail about:

to form any kind of judgement about whether they would be on the hook legally.

Looks like something that needs expert interpretation or maybe it has to be hashed out in the courts. I like that the article has some lawyer types chiming in. That wording in the article (pasted above) is really vague. I wonder if the law is actually that vague or if they just sort of paraphrased the law?

 

[User 1234]

 

[awshoot]

View attachment 1084258View attachment 1084259

If anyone had a legal duty to any schoolkids -- it was school officials. I would expect there to be actual laws outlining the school officials' duties toward student safety. They apparently thought the situation was bad enough to call in both parents for meeting, but not bad enough to suspend the kid for a day or two. If the school officials don't think the kid needs to be removed -- and they're the experts here under the law -- why is the blame (and prosecution) not being shared in a level manner?

 

[User 1234]

These people are not poor. According to one of the baby mamas the dude had a 6 figure income.

The ex wife in Florida thought that the Crumbley's made six figures, but even if that was true they might blow every penny. Jennifer Crumbley was twice arrested for passing bad checks. James Crumbley was fired from his job last July. They might have assets, but I'm skeptical.

 

[sobo]

An uncrackable consumer safe doesn't exist. They are deterrents. People want to smash and grab, or do something in the heat of the moment. You slow them down by 10 mins, 30 mins, an hour, or you require them to use substantial tools and force to break in (they might not be knowledgeable or strong enough, or they might make too much noise) and they reconsider. Or the heat of the moment passes and they rethink things.

Do I think a $500 safe would have kept a scraggly 15 year old from getting a handgun without his parents knowledge? Yes, I do.

Never said there was an uncrackable consumer-level gun safe. Dunno where you got that from what I wrote.
See what I said in my post that you quoted, and note the emphasized phrase: Start at around $2,000-$3,000 for the going rate for bottom-line security and fire protection.
All safes are nothing more than a time-buyer from theft. The better safes are better at fire protection.
As for a $500 safe keeping the creepy kid from kiping the gun? I think he could have got it open. So we will just agree to disagree...

 

[bbbass]

If anyone had a legal duty to any schoolkids -- it was school officials. I would expect there to be actual laws outlining the school officials' duties toward student safety. They apparently thought the situation was bad enough to call in both parents for meeting, but not bad enough to suspend the kid for a day or two. If the school officials don't think the kid needs to be removed -- and they're the experts here under the law -- why is the blame (and prosecution) not being shared in a level manner?

Well this is an interesting development: https://www.foxnews.com/us/michigan-school-shooting-school-officials-could-be-charged

 

[Mikej]

The ex wife in Florida thought that the Crumbley's made six figures, but even if that was true they might blow every penny. Jennifer Crumbley was twice arrested for passing bad checks. James Crumbley was fired from his job last July. They might have assets, but I'm skeptical.

Sounds like one screwed up family. Bet it was fun around the nightly dinner table, huh? Or should we chalk it up to "Toxic Masculinity" instead of screwed up family dynamics? 15 years old can be a crazy, crazy time for young people.

 

[solv3nt]

Sounds like one screwed up family. Bet it was fun around the nightly dinner table, huh? Or should we chalk it up to "Masculine Toxicity" instead of screwed up family dynamics? 15 years old can be a crazy, crazy time for young people.

I know in the cities, six figures isn't going to get you very far. Throw in car payments, student loan debt, and living expenses, and $100k is gone.

 

[Mikej]

I know in the cities, six figures isn't going to get you very far. Throw in car payments, student loan debt, and living expenses, and $100k is gone.

Yeah, not any more huh? It's not a lot these days but a family of three can live just fine on it. We've lived on a fraction of that in just the last 15years. But if you weren't frugal like that and lost 100K income in July? It could have been pretty ugly in that house for a kid in the throes puberty.

 

[bkroger86]

The ex wife in Florida thought that the Crumbley's made six figures, but even if that was true they might blow every penny. Jennifer Crumbley was twice arrested for passing bad checks. James Crumbley was fired from his job last July. They might have assets, but I'm skeptical.

The mom seems pretty screwed up too. I read her "letter to Trump" (https://archive.vn/rRL9y), and it sounds like she thinks she was owed a long list of grievances and that Trump could fix everything for her. She was just as delusional as any other person who thinks big government can fix all their problems. Not surprising her son ended up delusional as well.

 

[bkroger86]

Not necessarily... Look at Rittenhouse.

The Rittenhouse prosecutor was a clown. Not getting that vibe here.

 

[Cavedweller]

I know in the cities, six figures isn't going to get you very far. Throw in car payments, student loan debt, and living expenses, and $100k is gone.

Kind of depends on what the six figures are. "Six figures" is a pretty vague term. Could be 100,000 or could be 900,000. Not saying he made that much money by any means, but there's lots of wiggle room in between.