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Me vs. Beaverton Police

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by biggie24420, Sep 21, 2010.

  1. biggie24420

    biggie24420 Beaverton Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Hello, I decided to re-due this post.
    On Sep 21, 2010 at approximately 4:30pm I decided to go to a plaid pantry store on Farmington Rd. a few blocks east of Murray blvd. in Beaverton. I am a Washington Co. Conceal Handgun License holder (valid) and so I decided to open carry my firearm in a blackhawk serpa level II holster. At approximately 4:40pm while I was about a block away from plaid I noticed a marked Beaverton police car come towards me in a high rate of speed, but the police vehicle slowed down as there was traffic in front of it. I could visually tell that the Officer in the passenger side of the police vehicle saw me with my sidearm. About ten seconds later I noticed another marked unit drive towards me. At this time no one approached me and I continued to walk towards plaid. Once I was in the plaid parking lot, I noticed a police vehicle pull in right behind me (reflection off the glass from the stores) and I continued to enter the plaid pantry and I purchased a pack of cigarettes and talked to the clerk for a few seconds and told her jokingly "look I bet there are here for me". As I began to walk towards the doors I noticed two uniformed officers coming towards the building and I decided to show them my CHL inside my wallet as I exited the store. They (officers Crino and Bennett) made contact with me and I gave them my IDs and they began to ask me as to why I was open carrying that day. I asked Officer Crino if I had permission to record the situation on my cell phone and he rudely said "NO! you don't have permission", and I understood, and I began to tell the officers that it was my right to do so and with a CHL I was legally able to do so. Officer Crino then began to tell me how it causes alarm and how it would be a better idea if I concealed carry. I told officer Crino that I was worried about my weapon printing and also I had the right to open carry, and officer Crino made the comment about how maybe I should get a bigger shirt and that my license is for CONCEAL CARRY not to open carry.
    To make a long story short, I made it clear that I was within my legal right to open carry and that I was not violating any laws. Officer Crino looked as if he was getting annoyed, and I can only assume because I was standing my ground and not giving into his unwanted suggestions. Officer Crino also made it clear that it was legal for me to do what I was doing but it was casing alarm and they (police) had better things to do and they didn't want to keep on responding to the same call of a man with a gun. I told officer Crino that I understood his pint of view but I was not doing anything illegal... and he made a comment about how he also had the option of possibly contact Washington Co. about this matter, and how it could cause me to get my CHL revoked. I took that as a threat. At that time I should have stopped talking to officers Crino and Bennett but I did not stop talking and that was a big mistake on my part. I should have just gave them my CHL and kept quiet, but I told officer Crino that if it made the police happy, I would pull my shirt over my firearm and be done with it.
    Two other officers showed up and after it was all over I obtained the officer's names accept for officer Crino's because he refused to give me his police card and said that his name was on his uniform and I understood. I know police don't have to give you their card and that their name and badge number are on their uniform (assuming they are a uniform officer). At close to 5:00pm I was able to walk away and I had a few questions for the officers but they said that they had to go and they had things to do. As I began to walk away I contacted Washington Co. none-emergency and requested to have a Sargent contact me so I could further understand the situation. I received a phone call back from Sargent Burke with the Beaverton Police Department and I spoke with him over the phone. I have provided a audio recording of my conversation with the SGT and it is missing about three seconds of the beginning due to technical difficulties and I also didn't remember the Sargent's name so I had to call none-emergency and have the dispatcher tell me what the contacting Sargent's name was and she informed me that it was SGT. Burke.

    The funny thing was that officer Crino had contacted his SGT about this matter but officer Crino did not mention anything about him making comments about how he (Crino) could or had the option to contact Washington Co. about me open carrying and alerting the public and possibly causing my CHL to be revoked (IMHO if Crino did that he would look bad). I felt that if I was able to record the conversation between me and officer Crino, I would be able to provide proof to SGT. Burke about his officer's attitude towards my CHL permit. Also the subject of me being close to a school was brought up.... as far as I am concerned, the only school close to me was Beaverton High School and that was one (1) mile away from the plaid pantry (where I was contacted by police). I do not believe there were any other schools in the area other then BHS. Also as far as I know I CAN be on public school property with a firearm as long as it is concealed (unless it is private school/property) so I don't know why they tried to bring the whole school thing into play because I was not on school property.....

    THIS IS MY PHONE CONVERSATION WITH SARGENT BURKE....(the first voice you hear is mine)

    YouTube - Phone conversation between me and SGT.Burke of the Beaverton Police.


    First two officers that made contact with me:
    Officer Crino (BPD)
    Officer Rex Bennett (BPD)

    Last two officers that showed up:
    Officer Svetlana Brunson (BPD)
    Officer Gregory Schapp (BPD)

    Contacting Sargent (contacted me upon my request)
    Sgt. Burke (BPD)

    (BPD=Beaverton Police Department)
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  2. WhyteCheddar

    WhyteCheddar East of Moscow by the Willamette Well-Known Member

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    Lot of points to be made here.
    Yes, you have the right to open carry. But as it is very rare in our society to see a civilian practicing open carry you have to expect citizens to call and you have to expect the police to respond. That is the world we live in. The police should respond. They should be respectful and once they determine you are carrying legally you should be allowed to go on your way.
    I have a CHL and am supportive of open carry but if I saw someone walk past my home carrying open, I would call the police to check it out. We cannot turn back time. We have folks who have done insane things with guns to thank for the stigma society has over open carry and gus in general. Again, I am FOR open carry, I am just agreeing with the officer that you have to expect a bit of a hassle at times if you choose to exercise your right.
    Also, didnt catch if you got the officers permission to record the phone call. If not you should probably delete those files. That IS against the law.
     
  3. biggie24420

    biggie24420 Beaverton Oregon Well-Known Member

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    WhyteCheddar...... In the second video at the 6:52 minute marker the SGT said that it is NOT illegal to record conversations over the phone. If I am not mistaking, only one person has to know that the conversation is being recorded over the phone, and I was that ONE person.
     
  4. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Sgt. Burke said that a perosn would be arrested in the City of Portland for open carrying? And that would hurt your concealed carry permit? I did not know that. :huh:
     
  5. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    .......
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  6. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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  7. R-Rizzo

    R-Rizzo NW Oregon Member

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    Couple of points -- Not wanting to start a thread war... These are just my observations....

    A) Bigge24420 - You are correct, Oreogn is a "One-Party" state. Which means that only one person involved in the phone call has to be aware that it is being recorded.

    B) I have mixed feelings about this. Yes I understand most are ignorant and are not aware of the law. If you open carry in the People's Republic of Portland and/or it's neighbors you are more than likely going to get MWAG'd. Unfortunately its a fact of life. However, it is also the Officer's Responsibility to know the law as well. And especially none of the crap about calling WashCo and getting license's revoked. You cannot get your license revoked for following the rules. Thankfully, most CHL units are more versed in the law than Officers are. Once the initial contact has been made and it has been determined that due to your CHL, you well within your rights to open carry, it should be thank you sir have a nice day. You are not required to explain to them anything. It's "Here's my ID and CHL. Am I being detained? No? Thank you sir have a nice day" and walk away. End of situation.

    **Disclaimer** I'm not a lawyer, I do not play one on TV, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. The opinions expressed in any of my posts are just that. My opinions. They are under no circumstances to be construed as legal advice. Take the initiative to research and know your particular situation and be as knowledgeable as you can regarding laws that may or may not apply to you. Stay Safe.
     
  8. R-Rizzo

    R-Rizzo NW Oregon Member

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    You do realize this article is for Portland, Maine right? I was trying to figure out how Chief Reese got replaced already.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  9. biggie24420

    biggie24420 Beaverton Oregon Well-Known Member

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    R-RIZZO----- you are right, I should have just done what you said about showing ID, asking them if I was free to go and walk away assuming everything checked out (and everything does and did check out because I have nothing on me). There were 4 officer and I felt "out gunned" and I felt powerless and I tried to explain to the officer about how when I show ID, he or she can just run it, and when everything checks out they should let me go. I think they knew that but they changed the subject and talked about my shirt size and how they (officer) could contact county and get my license revoked because something about me scaring the public by open carrying.
     
  10. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Oops! HEHE :(:eek::eek::eek::eek:
     
  11. Contract_Pilot

    Contract_Pilot Vancouver, Washington Active Member

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    There was just something on this about recording the cops I cannot find it? In public it is fare game to record anything and everything. There is no law against it that is why Burke could not even give you the state law.

    R-Rizzo is correct..

    Kinda trips them up when your on foot and you give them a passport for ID hahaha.


    Here is what I was looking for Recording The Police
     
  12. R-Rizzo

    R-Rizzo NW Oregon Member

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    What you are referring to is Video Taping Police Officers in the performance of their Duties. While this is not expressly illegal, there has been a lot of controversy lately regarding agencies and D.A.'s going after people on "Obtaining contents of communications" ORS 165.540 - Basically saying that the conversations between an Officer and the person they are contacting are a "Private Conversation" therefore cannot be taped with out their notification. This is a nationwide problem, not just in Oregon

    Take this example... http://wjz.com/local/traffic.stop.youtube.2.1895446.html

    Basically long story short, guy is driving his motorcycle like a douche, has a helmet mounted video camera. Get's pulled over by a non-uniform, non-marked, off-duty MD State Police Trooper (Who is also acting like a douche) Hi-jinks ensue. Situation is resolved. When the guy posts the video to youtube later, the MD State Police come after him on "Wiretapping" charges (A Felony in MD) So this guy is now facing multiple years in prison / the destruction of his life over video taping a Public Employee in the course of their duties.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  13. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Bend (NWFA member) for this post.

    ORS 166.250 Unlawful possession of firearms. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260, 166.270, 166.274, 166.291, 166.292 or 166.410 to 166.470, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:
    ...

    (2) This section does not prohibit:
    ...

    (b) Any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides in or is temporarily sojourning within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by ORS 166.270 and subsection (1) of this section, from owning, possessing or keeping within the person’s place of residence or place of business any handgun, and no permit or license to purchase, own, possess or keep any such firearm at the person’s place of residence or place of business is required of any such citizen. As used in this subsection, “residence” includes a recreational vessel or recreational vehicle while used, for whatever period of time, as residential quarters.

    (3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

    ORS 166.260 Persons not affected by ORS 166.250. (1) ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect:
    ...

    (h) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.



    In Oregon it is legal to open carry with out a CHL permit. But Portland gets to say no....how come?
     
  14. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    14A.60.010 Possession of a Loaded Firearm in a Public Place.

    14A.60.010 Possession of a Loaded Firearm in a Public Place. - Printable Version


    A. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess or carry a firearm, in or upon a public place, including while in a vehicle in a public place, recklessly having failed to remove all the ammunition from the firearm.

    B. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess or carry a firearm and that firearm’s clip or magazine, in or upon a public place, including while in a vehicle in a public place, recklessly having failed to remove all the ammunition from the clip or magazine.

    C. The following are exceptions and constitute affirmative defenses to a violation of this Section:
    1. A police officer or other duly appointed peace officers, whether active or honorably retired.

    2. A member of the military in the performance of official duty.

    3. A person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.

    4. A person authorized to possess a loaded firearm while in or on a public building under ORS 166.370.

    5. A government employee authorized or required by his or her employment or office to carry firearms.

    6. A person summoned by a police officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace, while such person is actually engaged in assisting the officer.

    7. A merchant who possesses or is engaged in lawfully transporting unloaded firearms as merchandise.

    8. Organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.

    9. Duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or their members when going to and from the places of meeting of their organization.

    10. A corrections officer while transporting or accompanying an individual convicted of or arrested for an offense and confined in a place of incarceration or detention while outside the confines of the place of incarceration or detention.

    11. Persons travelling to and from an established target range, whether public or private, for the purpose of practicing shooting targets at the target ranges.

    12. Licensed hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going to or returning from a hunting or fishing expedition.

    13. A person authorized by permit of the Chief of Police to possess a loaded firearm, clip, or magazine in a public place in the City of Portland.

    14. A security guard employed at a financial institution insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation while the security guard is on duty.

    D. It is unlawful for any person who possesses a firearm, clip or magazine in or upon a public place, or while in a vehicle in a public place, to refuse to permit a police officer to inspect that firearm after the police officer has identified him or herself as a police officer. This Section does not apply to law enforcement officers or members of the military in the performance of official duties, nor persons licensed to carry a concealed handgun or persons authorized to possess a loaded firearm, clip or magazine while in or on a public building or court facility.


    I can't find where it says open carry without a CHL is illegal in Portland Oregon.
     
  15. R-Rizzo

    R-Rizzo NW Oregon Member

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    ORS 166.173 Authority of city or county to regulate possession of loaded firearms in public places. (1) A city or county may adopt ordinances to regulate, restrict or prohibit the possession of loaded firearms in public places as defined in ORS 161.015.
    (2) Ordinances adopted under subsection (1) of this section do not apply to or affect:
    (a) A law enforcement officer in the performance of official duty.
    (b) A member of the military in the performance of official duty.
    (c) A person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
    (d) A person authorized to possess a loaded firearm while in or on a public building or court facility under ORS 166.370.
    (e) An employee of the United States Department of Agriculture, acting within the scope of employment, who possesses a loaded firearm in the course of the lawful taking of wildlife. [1995 s.s. c.1 §4; 1999 c.782 §8; 2009 c.556 §3]
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  16. R-Rizzo

    R-Rizzo NW Oregon Member

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  17. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    CHL exempt, Ok. I am a little slow but where does it say a person without a CHL can not open carry in Portland? Loaded no. I see that. But unloaded?
     
  18. R-Rizzo

    R-Rizzo NW Oregon Member

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    B. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess or carry a firearm and that firearm’s clip or magazine, in or upon a public place, including while in a vehicle in a public place, recklessly having failed to remove all the ammunition from the clip or magazine.

    Basically you can open carry a firearm in Portland without a CHL as long as you remove ALL ammunition in from the "clip or magazine" So gun in holster, magazine in right pocket, and ammo in left pocket, and you should be okay....

    AFAIK -- Portland is the only city that requires the removal of ammo. In other cities you *MAY* get away carrying California Style (I.E. Gun w/ no mag in holster and loaded mag in mag carrier)

    **Disclaimer** I'm not a lawyer, I do not play one on TV, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. The opinions expressed in any of my posts are just that. My opinions. They are under no circumstances to be construed as legal advice. Take the initiative to research and know your particular situation and be as knowledgeable as you can regarding laws that may or may not apply to you. Stay Safe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  19. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I thought so. Thanks. But Sgt. Burke said that if biggie24420 open carried in Portland that he would get arrested and that would hurt his CHL permit. I say how?
     
  20. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Another officer not knowing the laws? Or Portland LEO's not obeying the laws?
    Why will a Portland Police Officer arrest him for doing something legal? With his CHL he can open carry and have his gun loaded. Without a CHL he can open carry, with the gun and mag unloaded. But get arrested anyways?

    Something is wrong there I just know it! :)