M4, M16 and 5.56 NATO- A national disgrace?

[gunnoob75]

Okay, you're oh so correct. SORRY To everyone that I have NO idea what I'm talking about.

I apologize to you ALL for suggesting that a modern, LE-tested round like TAP would work so well in CQB engagements and not being able to "back it up". I'm so sorry to Gunner for ever thinking I had any experience, because he OBVIOUSLY knows better. 5.56 soft points can only stop rabbits. I should have known that. I feel so stupid.

 

[Gunner3456]

Okay, you're oh so correct. SORRY To everyone that I have NO idea what I'm talking about.

I apologize to you ALL for suggesting that a modern, LE-tested round like TAP would work so well in CQB engagements and not being able to "back it up". I'm so sorry to Gunner for ever thinking I had any experience, because he OBVIOUSLY knows better. 5.56 soft points can only stop rabbits. I should have known that. I feel so stupid.

That kind of talk is always easier than backing up your claims. Sarcasm beats facts every time when your mag is empty.

There are impressive ballistics test photos and links to videos for short and long range use here in this thread, all on FMJ.

You made claims to refute them. Back them up. I'd be interested. I really would.

 

[HalfNutz]

Here is some info from the Hornady site on the TAP. There are several bullet weights.

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.223 Rem TAP Info

I keep a 20rd mag of these on-hand for home defense. <broken link removed>

 

[wichaka]

Here's some ballistic info. from ATK.

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[wichaka]

Also, lets tone the chipping down.

Plaaaaaaaaaaay nice!

 

[Gunner3456]

Here is some info from the Hornady site on the TAP. There are several bullet weights.

<broken link removed>

<broken link removed>

<broken link removed>

.223 Rem TAP Info

I keep a 20rd mag of these on-hand for home defense. <broken link removed>

Pretty impressive. Pretty expensive too, LOL.

From the various photos, I can't tell which is more damaging - the tumbling and breaking up causing multiple wound channels, or the expanding and shock. I also can't find any info on distances; Hornady did all of those tests at 30 feet, and Speer claims expansion only to 200 yards. I can't find a statement on Hornady.

I also haven't found any 5.56 for sale, only .223. I'd like to test some.

I'm impressed, but I don't know which is best. I'd love to see a comparison test, side by side a various distances. I have decided one thing about bullets: No one bullet is best for all circumstances, even within the same caliber.

 

[bnr32gtr]

5.56 is extremely deadly, especially if it's limitations are known and respected. Unfortunately, the .mil is limited by the .gov in spending, testing, procurement, retrofitting weapons, etc.

It's what our service men and women are stuck with for the time being. Talking to an instructor friend of mine recently and we were discussing 5.56 and 9mm ball. He made it very known that 5.56 fmj and 9mm ball have killed TONS of people. Going on to say that there are many, upon many graves for those killed with 9mm ball in Iraq and A-Stan and offered to show me if I would like to come visit him on his next tour.

Shot placement, training and basic fundamentals are key in all of this. I'm not saying that we shouldn't look for alternatives but don't believe everything some gun-rag writer spews out on paper and talk to someone who has really been in the suck.

My friend also mentioned that there is no magic bullet. The closest he opined was .300 Win-Mag, as he's a sniper.

Okay, my rant is over. Carry on.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

That was one of the close ones but they were not overrun. The perimeter was breached but that is not overrun. If they were completely overrun, they would have dragged our guys bodies in the dirt like in Somalia. It may have been their wish but it didn't happen. Could you say we lost that battle, yeah, I guess so if you want to talk about the technicalities of combat effectiveness or turn it into a political debate. I prefer to stick to the technical aspects of warfare and not dwell on political decisions. The fact that we later abandoned the outpost is an example of that lack of will I spoke about earlier. Getting back to the original debate of calibers and bullet design, I seriously doubt it was the bullets or the calibers that gave one side the advantage in that fight.

I suppose I agree with that

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Now there's some confusion for you.

I was referring to superior ergonomics of the weapons design and the low recoil caliber

 

[deen_ad]

holding to the Geneva Convention (which restricts expanding/explosive ammo) but our "enemies" are not?

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
WAC member
SWWAC member

 

[jordanvraptor]

Its actually the Hague convention of 1899 that prohibits use of bullets which break apart or have exposed lead or incisions in the jacket material. It also says it is only binding between signatory nations or groups that have notified a signatory nation that they are adhering to the convention. So, legally, we don't have to abide by the convention.

When I was in Afghanistan, I was given an M14 to lug around with everything else. Only used it on the range and scoping out stuff from the towers but we were issued M852 ammunition. It said right on the box that it was "Not for combat use" and we all got a chuckle as we loaded our magazines with it.

 

[NoAim]

Its actually the Hague convention of 1899 that prohibits use of bullets which break apart or have exposed lead or incisions in the jacket material. It also says it is only binding between signatory nations or groups that have notified a signatory nation that they are adhering to the convention. So, legally, we don't have to abide by the convention.

When I was in Afghanistan, I was given an M14 to lug around with everything else. Only used it on the range and scoping out stuff from the towers but we were issued M852 ammunition. It said right on the box that it was "Not for combat use" and we all got a chuckle as we loaded our magazines with it.

It's a non-expanding hollow point so it's legal for use. But the lots you got were likely very old and before that legal opinion was made.

More or less it's Federal's version of the 168gr match.

The 77gr MK262 is a similar OTM round, but for 5.56mm.

 

[jordanvraptor]

Of course it was old stuff, we were a National Guard unit. That's why we still had a few M14's laying around to pass out as Designated Marksman rifles. They actually did pretty good on the range though, with the M852 ammo I could get about a 6 inch group and another guy shot around 4 inch groups at 300 meters. They gave us nice Leupold scopes to put on them at least. I think they were 6-12x but not sure anymore. I got quite a few second looks hauling around the M14 as well as my M4 when we were coming back home. Whoop dee doo I got to carry around another 10 pounds of gear...

Back on topic, the M14 was definitely superior to the M4 for long range and for penetration of vehicles but I would not want to carry one as a standard battle rifle with full load out. In the towers it was fine and the optics were a bit better than binoculars for looking at stuff. The M14 probably has more of a place in Afghanistan due to longer ranges. That vid on another thread of the Marines being engaged by Enfield rifles would have been a good time to have a couple guys with M14's.

 

[Silver Fox]

What FOB?

I take it you were SECFOR? I was an ETT down in Zabul.

SF-

 

[jordanvraptor]

The pic was taken in Mazar E Sharif before we rotated to Kandahar. Yup I was SECFOR so we did a little of everything. I thought it was funny that they gave me the M14 even though I was a turret gunner most of the time we went out.

 

[fred c. dobbs]

only the American military is stupid enough to go into battle unprepaired, i know the MODS most likely will delete this statement because the first ammendment here is not allowed, however, it feels good to know i was right from the begging, as was the one who initated this thread.
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/25/army-outgunned-afghanistan/

Semper Fi

 

[fred c. dobbs]

No, you're just not reading correctly.

Post 1: Modern round (TAP) will do more damage than FMJ.
Post 2: FMJ doesn't do enough damage. Using modern rounds (Like TAP) can remedy this downfall.
Post 3: FMJ won't tumble and be used to it's fullest potential inside of 30 yards. (The insinuation being that a Soft or Hollow point of some sort will expand at this short range, doing more damage than a non-destroyed FMJ round.)

Help?

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/25/army-outgunned-afghanistan/

 

[Gunner3456]

only the American military is stupid enough to go into battle unprepaired, i know the MODS most likely will delete this statement because the first ammendment here is not allowed, however, it feels good to know i was right from the begging, as was the one who initated this thread.
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/25/army-outgunned-afghanistan/

Semper Fi

Ah, great. Someone at Fox News who knows nothing about guns quotes someone from AP who knows nothing about guns. AP concludes that:

"The 7.62mm round in the AK-47 is heavier and larger than the 5.56mm caliber bullet in the M4, and can therefore fly further on average."

Please wait until I get up off the floor on that one please. The rock in my slingshot is heavier too but...

Need I read these "experts" any further?

Next they quote someone who might actually know something, Jim Battaglini, executive vice president with Colt Defense and a retired major general with the U.S. Marine Corps.

Listen up!

"But Battaglini dismisses reports that the Army is considering rearming soldiers in Afghanistan. "On the battlefield, there are no reported operational issues with the M4. It's the weapon of choice in Iraq, and still the desired weapon in Afghanistan," he told FoxNews.com."

So, who ya gonna listen to - a couple of desk jockeys from Fox and AP, or Battaglini?

 

[NK777]

the 5.56 round fired out of a short barrel M4 sucks. You guys talk about the 5.56 round fragmenting but that only happens at closer range out of a longer barrel. The shorter barrel do not produce the velocity period. It is a dumb choice! I'd love to see soldiers with standard issue 308.

 

[jordanvraptor]

If they cant use mortars then I guess a .308 would be better than 5.56... I still want the mortars but ROE is a political debate...