M4, M16 and 5.56 NATO- A national disgrace?

[Blitzkrieg]

Blitzkieg that is a fancy picture of 50% fragmentation of the SS109 but is just not the truth. After action reports of the Ranger fight in Mogadishu reported little stopping power.

Let me say this before anyone mistakes anything I say about my experience there, I did not see combat and never shot at anyone and was not shot at.

However, I was stationed off shore as a TRAP (Tactical Recovery of Air Personnel) team with a Marine Expeditionary Unit. We got there after the Rangers got shot up.

According to the Rangers one body hit did little to deter attackers and often times several hits to the body was required to stop an attacker. Yes, the locals were on drugs, but a stimulant (a local root that was chewed) not opium. Either way the SS109 was not doing the job.

If you take a file and dissect an SS109 you will see that there is very little lead at the tip to deform when it hits a body. Also, Somalian torsos (body cavities) are about the same as anyone else's so I am not sure where the 7 inches thing comes into play.

So you know more about terminal ballistics than a forensic PHD?

Look at the graph again and read my earlier posts.. the M855 turns base backwards and disintegrates at about 7 inches of penetration. The "skinnies" in Somalia were thinner than that. A 7.62 NATO FMJ would have been no different, and would have simply punched a slightly bigger hole through. The US soldiers would also have run out of ammo sooner, IMO. I doubt it would have been more effective than the 5.56 for your Ranger buddies, either..

 

[Blitzkrieg]

A soft point in .223/5.56 is not nearly as effective as a modern FMJ. Tumbling and breaking and creating multiple wound channels (and therefore the chance to cut something vital such as an artery) is far more effective than any expansion which might be expected from a very light and thin bullet. And yes, 75gr is a very light and thin bullet - too light and thin to expect much expansion.

I agree.. the 7,62 NATO softpoints do transfer more energy than a 5.56 FMJ, though

 

[Blitzkrieg]

The problem I see with these tests is one they are not on humans, two they are at what velocity and range? Real world results are far different and vary from case to case.

I don't doubt the ability of a 20" barrel M16 shooting ss109 at across the street distance. The problem is out at 100, 200, 300, and more it is not doing anywhere near what it is doing at a in your face confrontation.

Longer ranges are why US military squads have these things called Designated Marksmen, with larger calibers. Where the 5.56 shines is in CQC

Those of you who think the 7.62 NATO can stack up against a 5.56 AR platform in CQC should get the Mag Pul training video.. it will open your eyes. Even an AK 47 (7.62) has trouble keeping up in CQC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye30b3TL5wI

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Tactical-Carbine-Chris-Costa/dp/B001JEQPKK

I own all three calibers in numerous designs and they all have their uses

 

[pogi]

AK 47 or AK 74 any old day. FTW!

 

[AIRASSAULT18B]

Somalia.. the problem there was the SS109/M855 did not have enough body to work on (The soldiers called the Somalis "skinnies") and to boot they were armed with RPGs and likely hopped up on opium

Sometimes stuff happens. Now if the US soldiers had had hi tech hollowpoints..

From my earlier post.

For the longer ranges the US SF have been using 77gr BTHP to great affect in M4s & SCARs. There is also groups using 90gr rounds. Yes in the 5.56 Which in both rounds lethality is unquestionable.

 

[AIRASSAULT18B]

Interesting point! I wonder if it is time to adjust this doctrine. In asymmetrical warfare against irregulars forces, foes normally do not have the discipline, let alone a doctrine to tend to their wounded, or do they? Remember Mogadishu.

Trust me the Combat Arms Soldier of today has no problem making battlefield decisions on what shot to take. A wounded enemy combatant could be used as bait for additional disposal of the people that wish us harm. It has been effective to lay out old ordnance to bait wood be IED makers. A couple of sniper teams will watch them and take as many as they can.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

[/B]

From my earlier post.

For the longer ranges the US SF have been using 77gr BTHP to great affect in M4s & SCARs. There is also groups using 90gr rounds. Yes in the 5.56 Which in both rounds lethality is unquestionable.

Since we never signed onto the Geneva Convention that is just fine with me

 

[jordanvraptor]

While all this debate of calibers, weapons, and bullets is interesting from a technological standpoint, modern wars are not won by individual weapons or marksmanship. Wars are won by strategy and national will. Sadly, I think we are lacking in both of those areas but that is a political debate. Battles in war are won by tactics and firepower. I can't recall any battles that the US military has lost recently although a few came close. The ones that were close were not dependent on calibers or bullets, they were dependent on air or artillery support and the ability to mass firepower against the enemy. When it comes down to individual firefights, bullets and calibers may matter to the individuals in that firefight but it wont win or lose a war in and of itself.

That being said, I liked my M4, but I liked my 240B even better. The M2 was cool and all but it was a pain to reassemble after cleaning...

 

[Blitzkrieg]

While all this debate of calibers, weapons, and bullets is interesting from a technological standpoint, modern wars are not won by individual weapons or marksmanship. Wars are won by strategy and national will. Sadly, I think we are lacking in both of those areas but that is a political debate. Battles in war are won by tactics and firepower. I can't recall any battles that the US military has lost recently although a few came close. The ones that were close were not dependent on calibers or bullets, they were dependent on air or artillery support and the ability to mass firepower against the enemy. When it comes down to individual firefights, bullets and calibers may matter to the individuals in that firefight but it wont win or lose a war in and of itself.

That being said, I liked my M4, but I liked my 240B even better. The M2 was cool and all but it was a pain to reassemble after cleaning...

US had to completely withdraw from a forward fire base in Afghanistan recently because they were overrun

 

[jordanvraptor]

US had to completely withdraw from a forward fire base in Afghanistan recently because they were overrun

That was one of the close ones but they were not overrun. The perimeter was breached but that is not overrun. If they were completely overrun, they would have dragged our guys bodies in the dirt like in Somalia. It may have been their wish but it didn't happen. Could you say we lost that battle, yeah, I guess so if you want to talk about the technicalities of combat effectiveness or turn it into a political debate. I prefer to stick to the technical aspects of warfare and not dwell on political decisions. The fact that we later abandoned the outpost is an example of that lack of will I spoke about earlier. Getting back to the original debate of calibers and bullet design, I seriously doubt it was the bullets or the calibers that gave one side the advantage in that fight.

 

[MountainBear]

Stop using FMJ's.

Problem solved.

I hate it when you and I agree...

 

[Gunner3456]

I believe that the 5.56 hollow points aka BTHP that are in use aren't the same in design or purpose as our handgun hollow points. The hollow point isn't for expansion but rather for aerodynamic stability. It is found in the best long range competition or "match" bullets such as the Sierra Match King.

Soft points, of which I've shot about 1,000 Hornadys in reloads and have about 1,000 more to reload, just don't seem to have enough weight behind them to expand well. I've recovered them from rabbits and if you think about it, that's scary. That's not much penetration and they weren't expanded much. A FMJ will go right through a rabbit.

I'd rather bet my life on the tumbling and breaking and the reasonable expectation of penetration with the FMJ. The soft points will be relegated to rabbits and rock chucks, etc.

$.02

 

[gunnoob75]

Tumbling and Breaking are very good, you're right. But that doesn't happen at closer ranges. FMJ will pop right out the back side of your enemy under 30 yards.

 

[Gunner3456]

Longer ranges are why US military squads have these things called Designated Marksmen, with larger calibers. Where the 5.56 shines is in CQC

Those of you who think the 7.62 NATO can stack up against a 5.56 AR platform in CQC should get the Mag Pul training video.. it will open your eyes. Even an AK 47 (7.62) has trouble keeping up in CQC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye30b3TL5wI

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Tactical-Carbine-Chris-Costa/dp/B001JEQPKK

I own all three calibers in numerous designs and they all have their uses

Tumbling and Breaking are very good, you're right. But that doesn't happen at closer ranges. FMJ will pop right out the back side of your enemy under 30 yards.

Now there's some confusion for you.

 

[gunnoob75]

Now there's some confusion for you.

Why are you confused? I said it doesn't tumble and break, I never said it didn't kill.

 

[Gunner3456]

Stop using FMJ's.

Problem solved.

This is simple.

In combat, you miss a lot. So you need more rounds. More rounds mean a lot more weight. Unless they're smaller rounds.

FMJ's don't do near enough damage. Every problem people have with the 5.56 round can be solved with some 75gr soft point happy-pills.

Tumbling and Breaking are very good, you're right. But that doesn't happen at closer ranges. FMJ will pop right out the back side of your enemy under 30 yards.

Now there's some confusion for you.

Why are you confused? I said it doesn't tumble and break, I never said it didn't kill.

I didn't say I'm confused. You're confused.

 

[gunnoob75]

No, you're just not reading correctly.

Post 1: Modern round (TAP) will do more damage than FMJ.
Post 2: FMJ doesn't do enough damage. Using modern rounds (Like TAP) can remedy this downfall.
Post 3: FMJ won't tumble and be used to it's fullest potential inside of 30 yards. (The insinuation being that a Soft or Hollow point of some sort will expand at this short range, doing more damage than a non-destroyed FMJ round.)

Help?

 

[Gunner3456]

No, you're just not reading correctly.

I can read just fine.

Post 1: Modern round (TAP) will do more damage than FMJ.

Please give me a link to this fine 5.56 ammo, and to ballistics tests?

Post 2: FMJ doesn't do enough damage. Using modern rounds (Like TAP) can remedy this downfall.

Please give me a link to this fine 5.56 ammo, and to ballistics tests?

Post 3: FMJ won't tumble and be used to it's fullest potential inside of 30 yards.

Please give me something to back this up, and if you can, please tell me why penetration of a FMJ isn't important.

(The insinuation being that a Soft

How is this possible if the soft point won't penetrate? I've seen them stop in rabbits.

or Hollow point

Please show me a hollow point 5.56 that's designed for expansion instead of aerodynamics.

of some sort will expand at this short range, doing more damage than a non-tumbling FMJ round.)


Help?

Yep, you need help.

 

[gunnoob75]

Hornaday 5.56 TAP. You can google it your damn self.

I never said penetration wasn't important. In fact, I said it would pop right out the back side of the bad guy. You're projecting what you WANT me to be saying.

I do not believe you have seen them stop in rabbits. However, if they do; Imagine how much energy is being transferred into that rabbit. That is called stopping power, my friend.

Both TAP and Gold Dots are built for expansion. They are not the only ones, but are the most effective in mind.

 

[Gunner3456]

Hornaday 5.56 TAP. You can google it your damn self.

I know what it is. I can't find a single ballistics test on it online.

I never said penetration wasn't important. In fact, I said it would pop right out the back side of the bad guy. You're projecting what you WANT me to be saying.

No, the soft points you mentioned don't give good penetration in that light of a bullet. You started out by saying "soft point happy pills."

I do not believe you have seen them stop in rabbits. However, if they do; Imagine how much energy is being transferred into that rabbit. That is called stopping power, my friend.

I'm going to save my life by stopping a rabbit how? Wow, that's some power.

Both TAP and Gold Dots are built for expansion. They are not the only ones, but are the most effective in mind.

Speer claims that the Gold Dot provides expansion out to 200 yards. That sucks. I can't find any claims or tests on the TAP. This is a light weight caliber, designed to be very fast, penetrate and then tumble and break.

You're making claims first for soft point, and when challenged, next for Gold Dot and TAP. If it's true I'd just like to see some ballistics tests.

You imply that the 5.56 doesn't perform well at close range and then someone posts proof that it does and you don't respond.

You claim that the TAP will do more damage than the FMJ not mentioning tumbling and breaking of FMJ, or linking anything to prove your claims (as usual)

AND I don't believe you.