M16 Auto Bolt Carrier Group in a semi auto AR-15 rifle

[spengo]

I may be wrong but the wa law states that any part of a machine gun is a machine gun. So if they wanted to they could get you for a m-16 sling swivel if you had it. Does not need to be on the rifle( if they wanted to of course)

So what about the barrel? flash hider? upper receiver? (and so on...)

 

[Zak]

I may be wrong but the wa law states that any part of a machine gun is a machine gun. So if they wanted to they could get you for a m-16 sling swivel if you had it. Does not need to be on the rifle( if they wanted to of course)

Here's the part that relates from the rcw
"any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle"

As the bcg works in semi it's not an exclusive MG part, particularly since it is / was a standard part in many new ar-15s.

Doesn't mean that someone couldn't try to make a case over it as laws ( like history) are often reinterpreted by those in charge, especially if they have an ax to grind w/ the owner.

 

[spengo]

Fact: Colt comes with a M16 bolt carrier from the factory. They sell them in WA to anybody. I think Colt would not do that, if it was illegal.

good enough for me

 

[coctailer]

if you think i'm wrong check the law, or see what they did to BIG AL(about 20 years ago)

I have.
I am a firearms manufacturer. I use full auto bolt carriers in my guns.

ATF knows this, LE knows this, it is 100% legal.

Big Als was busted for putting a full auto bolt carrier in a semi-auto rifle?:huh:
They should raid the Colt factory then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Sawdust]

I have.
I am a firearms manufacturer. I use full auto bolt carriers in my guns.

ATF knows this, LE knows this, it is 100% legal.

Big Als was busted for putting a full auto bolt carrier in a semi-auto rifle?:huh:
They should raid the Colt factory then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Read this http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Politics/Tax Cops/Big Al and the BATF/Big Al's Gunfight 5/ SCARY!

 

[Sawdust]

More info. Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters


Now don't get me wrong. I think that this is total BS (what happened to Al) I have always used F/A bolt carriers in my SBR builds, for the extra mass. It just scares the **** out me that evidence can be so misrepresented in a case.

 

[sgtrocko1]

Big AL allso had a class 2 lic that coverd machine guns and suppresers that they would not let him enter as evidence in his case. so as i said if they want to get you (prove a point) they will

 

[spengo]

Wow I hope he sued their pants off for that.

 

[zeppelin]

Absolutely nothing illegal about a full-auto bolt carrier.

This is true as far as the feds go. I have a pdf copy of a letter from BATFE dated May 5,2008 that says it is not unlawful to put an M16 bolt carrier in an AR15 rifle. You can find it by googling on ATF M16 Letter.pdf US Department of Justice.

 

[usrifle]

The BATF manipulated an early olympic arms AR to get it to fire 2-3 burst before jamming...and Big Al went to prison.
The early "stop sign" Logo SGW guns had the M16 Bolt, carrier, trigger, disconnector and selectors. If you pulled the selector out and flipped it over, past the "pin" on the receiver to the FA side, it would fire bursts. (Hammer follow). The BATF did just that with one of his guns and convicted him....even though they had to disassemble and flip the part to do it, they will.
Anyone who thinks they play "Fair", or that the word of the local LE is good enough with the feds is taking a HUGE chance.
Bottom line is the BATF will alter/machine and ADD parts to get a conviction, Big Al wasn't the first.
I won't be "testing" that law anytime soon.

All machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles, or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, illegally held or illegally possessed are hereby declared to be contraband, and it shall be the duty of all peace officers, and/or any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington, to seize said machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or parts thereof, wherever and whenever found.

Just my .02
usrifle

 

[usrifle]

Big AL allso had a class 2 lic that coverd machine guns and suppresers that they would not let him enter as evidence in his case. so as i said if they want to get you (prove a point) they will

...and that particular weapon wasn't registered as a legal Class III, so the Class II license didn't help...(..and why they wouldn't let him use it).

usrifle

 

[spengo]

All machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles, or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, illegally held or illegally possessed are hereby declared to be contraband, and it shall be the duty of all peace officers, and/or any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington, to seize said machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or parts thereof, wherever and whenever found.

Just my .02
usrifle

I go back to my previous post: How is the M16 bolt carrier different from using an M16 barrel? Or an M16 bolt? Extractor? Magazine catch? Plastic grip? Almost all the parts in semi-auto AR-15s are exactly the same as in an M16. The only differences are a few changes to the lower parts kit, an auto sear, and an extra hole in the receiver.

 

[Celtic Armory]

I have.
I am a firearms manufacturer. I use full auto bolt carriers in my guns.

ATF knows this, LE knows this, it is 100% legal.

Big Als was busted for putting a full auto bolt carrier in a semi-auto rifle?:huh:
They should raid the Colt factory then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

More info. ...

Now don't get me wrong. I think that this is total BS (what happened to Al) I have always used F/A bolt carriers in my SBR builds, for the extra mass. It just scares the **** out me that evidence can be so misrepresented in a case.

What you guys need to remember is WA is different than OR. I wish we didn't have the stupid laws banning NFA items. But you can put all the full auto parts from an M16 EXCEPT the bolt carrier and it still won't fire full auto, you have to have the bolt carrier to trip the auto sear. Colt may ship with the M16 carrier, but I know if you alter a stock AR that has an AR carrier by putting in a F/A carrier, you are skating on thin ice. The ATF agent that did my interview (I'm also a class 07) mentioned to watch for that as WA will gladly prosecute (and has) for people with F/A parts whether or not they are installed. He mentioned a case where a guy owned a basic AR and had the F/A hammer, trigger and carrier for an M16 (though not disconnector or sear) and when he had the cops visit him for a DV case they found the stuff and charged him with possession with the intent to manufacture an illegal machine gun. Instant felony. All I'm saying is take care in what you do in WA. It may not be against OR law or Fed law, but in WA they will find a way.

Oh, and those mentioning other parts that are on F/As like barrel and sling swivel, get real, it's the parts that make it F/A, not all parts. A barrel, stock or sling swivel don't make it F/A.

 

[Celtic Armory]

I go back to my previous post: How is the M16 bolt carrier different from using an M16 barrel? Or an M16 bolt? Extractor? Magazine catch? Plastic grip? Almost all the parts in semi-auto AR-15s are exactly the same as in an M16. The only differences are a few changes to the lower parts kit, an auto sear, and an extra hole in the receiver.

I will answer (again). Only the parts that actually are required to make it F/A are illegal. On an AK there is an auto sear, bolt carrier, disconnector, safety and hammer that are required to make it F/A. On the M16 it's the trigger, hammer, auto sear, disconnector and bolt carrier. The Feds only care about the auto sear and auto disconnector, which is why they are removed from the AK parts kits. But in WA it is recommended to grind of the sear edge of the hammer and the part of the bolt carrier that catches the auto sear and the part of the safety that would catch the auto disconnector. The auto disconnector is replaced by a semi-auto disconnector. Not that people actually do all that; just don't let the cops find it.

 

[coctailer]

The hammer, sear, disconnector are used EXCLUSIVELY in machine guns. They are not used in Semi-autos.

The heavy(full-auto) bolt carriers are used in semi auto rifles as well as full autos.

The law is for parts that are ONLY used in full autos. Bolt carrier does not fit the description.

 

[Celtic Armory]

The hammer, sear, disconnector are used EXCLUSIVELY in machine guns. They are not used in Semi-autos.

The heavy(full-auto) bolt carriers are used in semi auto rifles as well as full autos.

The law is for parts that are ONLY used in full autos. Bolt carrier does not fit the description.

While you know that, and I know that, the WA prosecuting attorney will see it the way I said it. They don't care if it's EXCLUSIVELY used or not. If it is needed to make it F/A, it's illegal to them. Sadly they're the ones that count as no jury could be found to argue against them since anyone with two brain cells to rub together will be eliminated in the jury selection process.

The reason for this thought line is that the M16 bolt carrier IS NEEDED to make it F/A whereas a regular AR bolt carrier CAN'T be used to make it F/A (at least in their eyes.)

 

[coctailer]

So, are you saying the guys with legal semi-auto factory Colt rifles are going to jail if they are caught?

 

[Celtic Armory]

So, are you saying the guys with legal semi-auto factory Colt rifles are going to jail if they are caught?

I doubt it if it came from the factory with the M16 bolt carrier, but if they had the AR bolt and changed to an M16 bolt carrier, it's possible. Not definite, but possible. The Kitsap County Prosecutor has been after Marcus Carter for years after he beat (several times) charges for an illegal machine gun (which he was legal with because of his 07 license and contract with the state and military). He's beaten all the charges, but lost his legally owned M4. He's also been harassed for years and now they're after his wife and their business that helps run KRRC. Washington is just screwed up. State law also requires that government buildings with off limit areas for firearms are supposed to provide lock boxes or a place and process to secure legally carried sidearms, but many don't and in some places (particularly in Pierce and King county) are likely to put you in handcuffs if you have a pistol on you that you need to secure. Most at the very least will run your SN and record it. We have people who have been ticketed and arrested for legal OC too. Generally there is no guarantee in WA that the LEO will actually uphold and enforce the laws properly and the prosecuting attorneys here love any opportunity to put someone behind bars or fine them.

In fact the other day as I was leaving the Kitsap County Sheriff's office I overheard the sheriff talking to a guy who asked him about OC, the sheriff told him, "yeah, it's legal, but there's a lot of problems with it." I wish I would have stopped and joined the discussion as he was giving his opinion instead of what the law says.

 

[coctailer]

I doubt it if it came from the factory with the M16 bolt carrier, but if they had the AR bolt and changed to an M16 bolt carrier, it's possible. Not definite, but possible. The Kitsap County Prosecutor has been after Marcus Carter for years after he beat (several times) charges for an illegal machine gun (which he was legal with because of his 07 license and contract with the state and military). He's beaten all the charges, but lost his legally owned M4. He's also been harassed for years and now they're after his wife and their business that helps run KRRC. Washington is just screwed up. State law also requires that government buildings with off limit areas for firearms are supposed to provide lock boxes or a place and process to secure legally carried sidearms, but many don't and in some places (particularly in Pierce and King county) are likely to put you in handcuffs if you have a pistol on you that you need to secure. Most at the very least will run your SN and record it. We have people who have been ticketed and arrested for legal OC too. Generally there is no guarantee in WA that the LEO will actually uphold and enforce the laws properly and the prosecuting attorneys here love any opportunity to put someone behind bars or fine them.

In fact the other day as I was leaving the Kitsap County Sheriff's office I overheard the sheriff talking to a guy who asked him about OC, the sheriff told him, "yeah, it's legal, but there's a lot of problems with it." I wish I would have stopped and joined the discussion as he was giving his opinion instead of what the law says.

The last batch of 6920s I got in all had them. They were factory sealed.

 

[Celtic Armory]

All I'm saying is that the OP asked about pros and cons and in WA changing any standard AR part to an M16 part that is one of the parts used to make the M16 F/A COULD land a person in hot water. It has happened before, it could happen again. The state likes to use that "converting" or "manufacturing" an "illegal machine gun" business. Even though you and I both know it's only illegal to actually make it F/A, the state doesn't care. Also the Feds don't really care either, just ask David Olofsen what the ATF thought of his aging, pre-ban AR with an M16 bolt carrier that malfunctioned because of warn parts and triple tapped before jamming. He's now doing several years for felony transfer of an unregistered machine gun; his military career ruined, all his guns confiscated and his life turned upside down.