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Looking for used Pistol wisdom

Discussion in 'Handgun Discussion' started by Retread, Oct 25, 2009.

  1. Retread

    Retread Not to far from Salem, OR Member

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    I am trying to settle on a pair of pistols for us of the same make and model. We are senior citizens, but we can shoot 9mm just fine, though nothing larger (getting older stinks, but it beats the alternative). We live out of town a ways, but for the first time ever we feel it is time to start carrying full time around our place, so weight is a consideration. Money is a big issue for us, so I have been studying various pistols and their costs (including mags and ammo).

    We both like and can afford the CZ82 and shoot it quite well. I am pretty handy and willing to rebuild a couple of these if that is what we settle on.

    I am not so sure the 9x18 Makarov is a sufficient self defense round, is it?

    I am hoping there is something out there similar to the CZ82 but in 9mm Parabellum. Is there? Neither of us likes the Hi-Point for carrying by the way.

    I'd appreciate some input. Thank you.
     
  2. cyclesarge

    cyclesarge Eugene OR, DUH! We're ALL in the NORTHWEST Well-Known Member

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    What's your budget?
     
  3. Retread

    Retread Not to far from Salem, OR Member

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    The CZ82 cost range seem to be from $190 to $220.
     
  4. Oro

    Oro Western WA Active Member

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    Retread, I have a few thoughts that on a good day in the correct light might be mistaken for wisdom on "used pistols."

    1) Caliber: Yes, people put down the Makarov as a defensive round. But looking at the ballistics, I just don't see a huge problem. It is "OK," and on the objective side consider that the eastern block armies and para-military units used if for a very, very long time. And it's not like they couldn't make and distribute 9mm for basically the same cost should they have felt the need. Recoil, size, etc., made them think that it was a perfectly acceptable alternative to 9mm, and to use a common Cold War phrase, "No one ever accused Ivan of being dumb."

    2) Cost: consider how much you want to shoot the gun. 9x18 has limited choices, variable costs. If you don't plan on shooting much (a little once in a while) then no problem. If you want to shoot much, it will get costly and it does not sound like you are a reloader.

    3) Consider another caliber/platform: in these cases, I highly recommend to people to consider a S&W "pre-Model 10" or model 10. There are millions of these out there, in prices and conditions from $200 for good/very good units to $300 for cherry vintage models if you shop hard. A pair of them would not be hard at all to come up with, be American made pieces of handgun history. The .38 is cheaper to shoot than 9x18 with superior ballistics and a wide range of target, standard, and more potent +p ammo. also:

    a) As you age and perhaps 9mm becomes a bit "snappish" on your wrists or hands, .38 offers a softer feel and more choices of power range

    b) the manual-of-arms for a S&W is much simpler than for a Makarov. It's much simpler to use if you or your partner don't plan on practicing withe the auto often.

    These are some thoughts and are not meant to tell you it's a better idea. Just a different route to consider. If you love the CZ (and many do), then by all means go that direction.

    Good luck.
     
  5. bmw2

    bmw2 Mount Vernon, Wa Active Member

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    If you like it and shoot it well, I'd say there's your choice. Just make sure to get some good carry ammo, which might be a little harder to come by in that caliber but it's out there.

    I also like the S&W model 10, one of my favorite guns to shoot.
     
  6. Cougfan2

    Cougfan2 Hillsboro, OR Well-Known Member

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    +1 on a S&W Mod 10. Tons of them out there for reasonable prices. Lots of .38 Spl defensive load options out there. Very simple to operate. Pull the trigger and the gun goes bang. No worries about clearing jams. If you have a dud, just pull the trigger again. If I could only have one defensive handgun, it would be a DA/SA .38/.357 revolver of some configuration.
     
  7. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Clackamas County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I would also recommend consideriing .38's. Inexpensive, easy to find, very easy to shoot, reasonably easy to carry with 4" or less, ammo is widely available and fairly cheap, lots of available parts, grips, holsters, etc., all fairly cheap.

    A variety of loads are available as is a wider variety of configurations and makers. Everyone wants autos now or heavy caliber revolvers......38's are a very good value.

    In 9mm, the older Smith and Wesson 39 or39xx series is a pretty good value and these work well.
     
  8. Retread

    Retread Not to far from Salem, OR Member

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    Thank you fellas! I never thought of a revolver, and this surely does make good sense as another possibility. I've never shot one myself, so I'll take the wife out and we'll both give that S&W a whirl.

    I think you are having a good day Oro! Much thanks for your very thoughtful and insightful considerations of my dilemma.
    Retread
     
  9. onearmedswordsman

    onearmedswordsman Hillsboro, OR Member

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    Retread,

    9x18 Makarov terminal ballistics are adequate for self defense at close distances. Experts say .380 (9mm Kurtz) is the minimum one should consider for personal defense.

    9x18mm terminal ballistics is just a tad above .380 and a somewhat below 9x19mm (non+P).

    If you like the CZ82, can shoot it well, will plink regularly, I'd go ahead and buy it. IMHO,

    1) chances are you will never need it for self defense
    2) if you do, then you will know what to do with it because you practiced plenty.
    3) Self defense is like real state: what matters is "location, location, location."

    Immediate relaxation can onlibe obtained if you hit the central nervous system or the spinal cord. But in self defense it is just not realistic. We train to hit center of mass, and very few if any handgun will provide a lot of stopping power. I could keep going but won't.

    You ask if there is something similar to the CZ82 but in Parabellum. Let's see what the other members say, but I don't think there is. The CZ and other 9x18, 9x17, and lower caliber guns ares straight blowback guns. 9x19 round is a bit too much for blow backs and require locked breach recoil operated designs. Barrels are attached to the frame on blowback operated guns, which is why they tend to be more accurate than their more powerful cousins. In the 9x18mm, then, you probably have the most powerfull cartridge that can still function reliably and is not painfull to shoot in a straight blowback gun.

    I own a 1911, A Sig P229 (I have both357Sig &40S&W bbls), a Beretta 92FS, a S&W686 and two 9x18 Bulgarian Makarovs. What do I carry? A Makarov. What I shoot the most? A Makarov. Why? I love shooting the little guns. They are very accurate, small framed and not too heavy. They feel solid and are rugged as heck! Easy to clean and fix yourself. The only thing I don't like of my Makarovs is the mag release is at the pistol grip butt. The CZ82 has it on the right place!

    9x18mm ammo is a bit more expensive than 9mm Luger. I buy Wolf MC and now Silver Bear in large qtys and chase deals so it does not hurt as much in my pocket.

    All CZs are great guns and I am surprised I do not yet own one. More than once I've had a CZ75 or a SP-01 (both 9mm Luger) in my hands, always losing to other priorities. But its day will come.

    If you are still considering a Parabellum, then you might enjoy checking out this site, too: http://www.best9mm.com/
     
  10. Retread

    Retread Not to far from Salem, OR Member

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    onearmedswordsman,

    Thank you! Yours are the reasons I like the CZ82... well, and my wife says its cute. As for ammo, take a look at ammoengine.com. They show FMJ at less than 20 cents a round in case lots, which is how I buy ammo.

    I am glad to learn you prefer to shoot and carry your Makarov. I really enjoyed shooting the CZ82.

    And thanks for the info on terminal ballistics. I needed that.
     
  11. onearmedswordsman

    onearmedswordsman Hillsboro, OR Member

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    Hey! This site seems to really work!! I don't use this type of site much because they are as good as the data that's put into it. Other similar sites I've tried data is so old that it is useless. Thanks a bunch!

    I normally buy 9x18mm at Sportsmansguide (SPG). I buy a lot of ammo so I recover the membership dues with the second order of the year. Once you reach that point, with the discount coupons I get every week, shipping drops to almost zero. And, if the order must be broken down into several shipments (i.e backoders), they charge you only for the first. I've found very few online retailers do it. So far customer service has been great. Ammunitiontogo is my 2nd choice when SPG does not have what I need.
     
  12. smonk

    smonk Oregon Member

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    Another vote here for the CZ82. Its a reliable, accurate gun that's a nice size (big enough to get a hold on, small enough to carry) and a bargain for the price!
     
  13. nixuser

    nixuser nw Member

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    If you like it and shoot , then you might want to consider the Russian tt33 in 7.62x25 , you can get 1240 rounds of surplus at the gun shows for $150.00 and wolf makes hollow points in 7.62x25 , you can find these pistols at the gun shows all the comm bloc countries made them and put there own type of name on them such as the polish ttc , $200.00 to $300.00 just my 2cents :)
     
  14. Retread

    Retread Not to far from Salem, OR Member

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    Thanks for the input nixuser. The 7.62x25 is a bit to hot for the wife, and I'm having to pay attention to my age and less than youthful strength.

    I've used ubuntu for 4 years now. I like nix too.

    Retread
     
  15. dario541

    dario541 medford, or 97504 Member

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    You might check out Ruger. You can find good used Rugers in 9MM for around $300 at times. According to Ruger's 2010 catalog, a brand new Ruger P95 costs $393. You might even get a discount from some dealers. And, being as the 9MM is the world's handgun caliber, if you can buy any ammo at all, 9MM should be available!
     
  16. raindog

    raindog Portland, OR Active Member

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    Makarov is about the same as .380, if not a little better.

    Cor-bon made Makarov JHPs at one point - I think they are discontinued now, but were in the 220 ftlbs of energy at muzzle range. Cor-bon's loads always push the edges, though.

    CCI Blazer is about 175.

    http://www.makarov.com/mak04.html

    I just looked at Federal and they make an American Eagle (granted, it's ball ammo) that produces 211 ft lbs at muzzle. That's better than either the AE .380 or their Hydrashok 380, though of course the HS is JHP.

    There are a lot of people who carry .380 for personal protection. Either Makarov or .380 is on par with most .38 Special loads.
     
  17. Retread

    Retread Not to far from Salem, OR Member

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    Thanks raindog. I am happy to know the 9x18 seems to be a sufficient self defense round, albeit near the low end of the possibilities. Wifey and I should be able to shoot this round for years to come.

    Thank you all for being so generous with your experience and wisdom!
    Retread
     
  18. Retread

    Retread Not to far from Salem, OR Member

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    After all the great input from you guys, I up and went another direction - but with your advice much in mind (DAO and 9mm). My brother got a Kel Tec P11 (9mm) and brought it over to show off and shoot a bit in our yard (we have moved to a more rural location since last posting).

    I liked it immediately, it is so light, 20 ounces fully loaded! Long story short, I got a new one in hard chrome for $276. I got some extra capacity mags: S&W series 59 (15 rds) and S&W series 69 (12 rds). After adding a Houge grip over padded tape on the back, my wife likes it too.

    It is DAO which we both like. I did the fluff and buff (which it needed) on the working parts, and a pseudo trigger job (see KTOG.org) and now it is just right for me. At 20 ounces fully loaded I carry it all day without a problem.

    Thank you fellas, for your generosity, wisdom and respectful opinions.

    Retread
     
  19. Taurus 617 CCW

    Taurus 617 CCW Northern Idaho Member

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    Retread,

    Congrats on your new Kel Tec. Please give us a range report when you take it out. I almost purchased one myself but ended up with a Glock 19 instead.
     
  20. Retread

    Retread Not to far from Salem, OR Member

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    To recap my requirements, my wife and I are not as young and strong as we once were. I was looking seriously at the CZ-82 in 9x18 Markov for full time carry and self defense. The fellas here gave me some great input that got me thinking beyond the CZ-82 and the 9x18. Then my brother showed me his very light Kel Tec P11 9mm. It was love at first sight.

    While it's engineering and design are first class clever, they can come a little rough here and there. At half the price of anything comparable you still get way more than you pay for. Kel Tec's warranty and service are the best in the industry, AND they are the 3rd largest gun manufacturer in America. My brother's blued version ($240) was pretty much just fine right out of the box. He cleaned it thoroughly, greased and oiled it, then broke it in as recommended here and here. He fired off his first rounds and was disappointed with its bite. So he got some snap caps then worked the trigger and slide a few hundred times at his work desk to get used to it. The next time he took it shooting was when he introduced it to me. He was surprised at how effective that snap cap practice was.

    Mine was a different story. I got the hard chrome version that was less than stellar. It functioned okay, but lots of rough spots. Obviously mine was first off the assembly line Monday morning after the company picnic. :) I went to KTOG.Org - TecWerks - Tips, Tricks and Fixes - Kel-Tec Owners Group and did their full fluff and buff plus trigger work. Then I did the same break-in routine as my brother.

    Now I love this thing! I am a rifle guy, but this little pistol and I get along really well. It is more accurate than is reasonable to expect of a 3.1" barrel. There are all kinds of goodies you can get to tweak it into just what you want. I love that this little thing is truly concealed on my person, and that I have two 15 round backup mags on me as well (S&W series 59 with +10 springs from Wolff). That totals 43 rounds on me at all times, and a pistol that weighs just 20 ounces fully loaded.

    We found a cure for the kick these thing have. A Hough grip really does help, but we doubled its effectiveness by putting some padded tape on the back of the handle and wrestling the Houge grip over that, then trimmed it to fit. This made a HUGE difference.

    Obviously I like this pistol. That said, it is for self defense rather than a fun range gun. The trigger pull is long and certainly stiffer than your SA/DA, but it is SMOOTH. Shooting my buddies Springfield XD9 is fun, the P11 is okay, but more of a duty to keep our skills up. BUT... I am now armed at all times with a tiny, easily concealable pistol with 43 rounds on my person, and that was the goal with as low cost as I could manage.