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Long Distance Competition

Discussion in 'Competitive Shooting' started by GrpCapMandrake, Jul 11, 2010.

  1. GrpCapMandrake

    GrpCapMandrake Vancouver Active Member

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    I have long wanted to get into long distance shooting, but for one reason or another I never did. I am finally finding myself free enough to pursue this hobby with the dedication it deserves, but I lack any reasonable experience in sooting at long distances. Is there anyone here that can offer the knowledge they have gleened from the sport and more importantly I would like any information on how someone can find training or a mentor for the sport. My goal is to avoid recreating the wheel and learning bad habits along the way.

    I have also set out to put together a decent rifle to start with, a Rem. 700 in 7mm but again I admit my own shortcommings and would like any reccomendations on good gunsmiths in the Pac NW.

    Thanks in advance for any help you all can provide.
     
  2. OregonJohn

    OregonJohn Sutherlin, Or Bronze Life Member #1 Lifetime Supporter

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    PM Jason Perry, his user name here on the forum is strictlyRUM. I would say he is a expert level 1000 yard plus shooter and expert level gunsmith. His custom guns are a work of art in function. I am sure, as he does this for a living, he will get you going in the right direction.

    John
     
  3. NoOne

    NoOne Puget Sound Active Member

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    I second the Jason Perry gunsmith recommendation. He is working on one for me now. Hopefully, I'll get it back soon...

    Anyhow, Tri-County gun club has a 600 yard league that shoots tuesday evenings. Be there about 5:15, we start shooting at 5:30. You have to have a 300 yard zero before going to the 600 yard line. If you aren't hitting the target backer, liability concerns require that you cease fire within about 3 shots. People there will gladly help you out.

    It costs $15.00, and you get 2 sighters, and 20 shots for record. You pull targets once, and shoot once. Then the 3rd saturday of the month there is another shoot. I think the league ends after the August shoot. Your 5 best scores count toward season ending ranking. But you can learn alot while trying to get in 5 shoots.
     
  4. GrpCapMandrake

    GrpCapMandrake Vancouver Active Member

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    Thanks gentlemen for the information. I will see what I can do to make it out to the range but it might have to wait for the next round.
     
  5. NoOne

    NoOne Puget Sound Active Member

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    I'll be happy to help you out with the 300 yard zero if you want to arrive a bit early on some tuesday.
     
  6. landcbeitner

    landcbeitner Everett, WA Member

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  7. GrpCapMandrake

    GrpCapMandrake Vancouver Active Member

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    How do you determine the proper twist rate for a bullet? I know I am going to shoot a 7mm. I am going to purchase a customs barrel for the Rem 700 I have but the question of twist rate is one that I have not found much information about. I have read quite a bit about various bullets, shapes, BC's, etc; I have just not seen much regarding twist rates and various bullets.


    I have many questions but I don't want to overload the board with my abundant ignorance all at once.
     
  8. NoOne

    NoOne Puget Sound Active Member

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    Much depends on the weight of the bullet you intend to shoot. After you choose a bullet, then there are a couple of different formulas for picking the twist. If you are buying a custom barrel, the barrel maker can be really helpful picking the twist.

    Generally, use the least twist you need in order to stabalize the bullet. This will extend barrel life, and reduce the amount of fouling.

    Some makers also allow you to pick the type of rifling profile you want; ie: traditional, 5R, polygon and so on. You will also need to decide the method used to rifle the barrel you can get broach rifled , button rifled, single point cut, or hammer forged barrel. I'm not aware of any barrel maker that allows you to choose from all the possible ways a barrel is rifled.

    I think you will get a great deal of information from the barrel makers. They are usually really helpful. Makers like Kreiger, Lilja, Schneider, Broughton and many other custom makers have a well earned reputation from providing an excellent product, and really good customer service.
     
  9. trainsktg

    trainsktg Portland OR Well-Known Member

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    GCM,

    Welcome :).

    In all honesty, picking calibers, bullet weights and rifle twists are good for a shooter with a strong foundation in proper shooting form, but impractical for someone without that base. If you don't have that background, might I suggest a program that teaches a person how to shoot, in this case, based on time tested long distance military marksmanship training? These folks will offer the mentorship and training it looks like you are seeking.

    Appleseed Project Home

    Keith
     
  10. scdmd

    scdmd Bend, OR New Member

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    There is a book out by Litz. "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting". It describes how to determine the proper twist rate based on the bullet you are shooting. You can order it at: Applied Ballistics, LLC

    It has some really good information in it and would be a good addition to your reference library.
     
  11. GrpCapMandrake

    GrpCapMandrake Vancouver Active Member

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    Hey NoOne. Thaks for the reply. I have been doing some serious thinking about the various barrel choices and have read quite a bit about the various manufacturing processes. I am leaning toward a stainless steel Krieger barrel with cut rifling. For a long time I was partial to Hart barrels but after reading more about the rifling methods I am going with cut rifling because of the better possible uniformity and less stress on the barrel.

    As far as bullets that is an area where I am still undecided. I a figuring the heavier bullet will be better aerodynamically over a long distance because of weight of length. However I am just starting to look at the "fancy" bullets like moly coated and trying to make a determination on that. Perhaps I am overthinking this too early and should just go with a HPBT from a major manufacturer.
     
  12. GrpCapMandrake

    GrpCapMandrake Vancouver Active Member

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    Keith I could not agree more. I have been reviewing various programs and intend on doing just that. I have been putting the positive spin on my time away from shooting by telling myself that it has allowed me to un-learn some of the decidedly bad habits I had years ago and given me the opportunity to wise up so I would be a better student.
     
  13. 2506

    2506 Seattle Well-Known Member

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    This from a pretty good shooting website:

    THE BOTTOM LINE
    It is safe to discard most of the "hype" regarding extended barrel life, ease of cleaning, etc. and focus instead on performance. Nearly all competitive shooters have discarded Moly as a bad idea that just introduced another variable to control. Copper is not difficult to remove with proper solvents and cleaning tools. If you see no substantial accuracy improvement with moly bullets then you may have no reason to use them.

    On the other hand if you have a barrel that simply will not shoot well no matter what you try; or it "walks" badly as it heats, then moly coated bullets may be worth a try. Some rifles seem to prefer moly, others show no substantial difference. We have concluded there is a direct relationship between the quality of a barrel and the benefits accrued from using moly. Generally the better the barrel, the fewer benefits. Good barrels foul less, do not change shape as they heat and are easy to clean.
     
  14. NoOne

    NoOne Puget Sound Active Member

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    Take a hard look at moly coating and look into what some people call the "ring of death" that SOME PEOPLE say moly leaves in the throat of your barrel. Some folks won't use moly any more and have gone to a newer coating. Others say no coating is best, but this is another area where more research will help you out alot. 6mmbr.com will help you alot with information.

    I agree with the above postings about getting a really good foundation before launching into building a custom rifle. Most people are better served by first purchasing an off the rack rifle (like a Savage, or Remington PSS) that will outshoot them, and spend the money saved to get some training. Once you can outshoot the rifle you own, then you can justify upgrading to a really fancy one.

    Usually, by the time you learn to outshoot your rifle, you already know which bullet you want to use, and that will dictate the twist for your barrel.

    You don't need to attend classes out of state, as most local clubs have programs like NRA high power, practical rifle and similar programs. Although I have shot competitively for nearly 30 years, I'm learning alot at Tri-County gun club's 600 yard summer rifle league that ends on Saturday.

    I think once you start either competing, or attending classes, you will quickly get all the information you want for building your rifle. Almost all the people at competitions enjoy helping folks out, meeting and talking with new shooters. I'm sure you would receive a warm welcome.
     
  15. 2506

    2506 Seattle Well-Known Member

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    Wise words from NoOne. I'd second that. Get a PSS and put your money into optics. I shot stock guns for years before I had one built.
     
  16. trainsktg

    trainsktg Portland OR Well-Known Member

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    Agreed 2506. All my rifles are rack rifles and as (relatively) good as I am, I still can't consistently 'outshoot' them.

    Keith
     
  17. GrpCapMandrake

    GrpCapMandrake Vancouver Active Member

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    Well thanks folks for the info. I have to say that I agree completely with everything said. I have not placed orders for anything yet....I am just striving to wrap my mind around it all. I have some solidifying ideas of what I want and I think most importantly I have the beleif that I can acheive my goal.

    It is sage advice though that unless there is a solid fundamental base there can be no productive or enjoyable advance; much like my golf game.

    Kelly
     
  18. NoOne

    NoOne Puget Sound Active Member

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    Just so the OP doesn't think he will be "short changing" himself with an off the shelf system I offer this. Tri-County Gun club has two sniper type practical rifle matches per year in August and February. On a number of occasions, the match has been won by people using box stock Remington 700 PSS rifles with Leupold 3-9 scopes. The Leupold scopes weren't even ones with adjustable objectives, or target turrets.

    These people were competing against Sako TRGs, Blasers, custom rifles, Accuracy international rifles and so on. It was shooting skill that won the match, not equipment. I was really pleased to see that the person with the best shooting skill won, not the person with the fattest wallet that allowed them to buy a $3000.00 rifle with a $2500.00 scope on it.

    You only need better equipment when your skill allows you to outshoot the equipment you own.
     
  19. GrpCapMandrake

    GrpCapMandrake Vancouver Active Member

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    Any memebers of the gun club willing to go to the range to try out my 700 as is? I want to get a membership but have to wait another month.
     
  20. NoOne

    NoOne Puget Sound Active Member

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    PM sent