Loads for muzzleloading rifles...

[Andy54Hawken]

This question is a very popular one:
What load do I use in my rifle?....

Before we get to the "meat" of this post , you gotta know a few things about how I shoot:
I only use real black powder...
2F is my powder of choice...
If you use 3F for a large caliber rifle ( .50 and above ) back off my load advice by 10 grains or so....
This means in plain English : I usually suggest a starting load of 50 grains of 2F for a .50 caliber rifle...So if you use 3F , start with 40 grains...

Pyrodex can be used like real black powder...but be warned that Pyrodex is not reliable in flintlocks.
If you want to shoot a flintlock , I say again Do not use Pyrodex...unless you like hangfires , failure to fire and the old flash in the pan ...

I try to load as "historically correct" as I can for the rifle in question...This means generally speaking , lighter loads with a loose patch and ball combination...I try not use a short starter and if using a flintlock , prime from my horn...no 4F "priming" powder...


I like the old rule of thumb when trying a new rifle...that is one grain per caliber.
So if you have .50 caliber rifle...start with 50 grains of powder.
You will probably find that your .50 caliber will like a charge of 55-70 grains.
In my experience , most rifles shoot best with a charge that is anywhere from the caliber to about 20-30 grains higher.

For example my Hawken in .54 caliber does its best shooting with a 80 grain charge.
Will it shoot well and handle a larger charge..yes...but at the cost of recoil and more powder used with no real difference in the result on game or the target.
That said there is some truth to the "Double charge" and effectiveness on game...you do read of 19th century accounts of doing this practice.
I have shot my Hawken using a double charge...at close range 25-75 yards the point of impact was the same and the gong did indeed ring "louder" ...suggesting that the ball hit "harder".
But again, as a general rule , your rifle will shoot the best with a load that is the caliber or 20-30 grains higher.

Many facets of your rifle will play a part in your load of choice.
The quality of the rifle will play a role in you load.
Some imports of the 1960's and 70's are little better than wall hangers and one should always load light when a guns quality is suspect.
I have found that as a general rule many rifles with shallow grooves shoot better with a lighter charge and those with deeper grooves , shoot better with a heavier charge.
If you are lucky enough to have and shoot a antique rifle...after checking the rifle for being safe to shoot ...use a lighter load as well...If the antique piece is in sound shape and not of some sort of historical lineage , then there is no reason , not to shoot it , occasionally....in my opinion.

The patch you use is also noteworthy....always use a 100% natural patch.
The thickness can improve accuracy , but if too thick , you will have difficultly in loading your rifle.
I like a thinner patch , with spit as a lube for general shooting or bear grease or deer tallow if hunting.
Store bought patches come in sizes of .5 , .10 , .15 , .18 and .20 ...usually.
Also be aware that one companies .15 might be thicker or looser than another companies .15 patch.

In a different post I have gone over round ball sizes...to sum up :
Use a round ball that is snug with your patch...but not tight enough that you must hammer it home.
For example I use a .530 round ball and a ,15 patch in my .54 Hawken...A .50 caliber rifle might do well with a .490 round ball and a .15 patch.
And just like patches , one companies or brand of ball mould of .530 round ball might differ in size than another brand.

If using a flintlock I prime from my horn....I do not use 4F priming powder.
If you have a quality lock , a clean vent hole and a sharp flint your rifle will go off with 2 or 3F powder.
Yes I know I said "If"...
That said most off the shelf rifles ( T/C ,Lyman , Pedersoli , Traditions etc... ) will do better with 4F priming powder.
Tips for flintlocks ...
Keep a sharp flint...don't use those cheap sawed flints...buy good knapped English or French flints...
Keep your vent hole clean...
"All skill is in vain , if a Angel pees down your vent hole" ...Old German saying...
As a general rule , you do not need a lot of powder in your pan...
I find that for most of my flintlocks the powder in the pan is best placed in the middle of the pan...

And always remember when loading : Powder , patch , then ball...
Andy

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[etrain16]

More great info Andy! I think this thread would also be worthy of a 'sticky'. Certainly would make it easier for the newbie shooters and new members to find it.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Thanks etrain!...
At the risk of seeming pompous ...I'll make it a sticky...
Andy

 

[RVTECH]

with spit as a lube for general shooting or bear grease or deer tallow if hunting.

And if you find yourself a little 'short' of bear grease or deer tallow - fry some chicken skin and strain and filter the fat - chicken grease is slicker than snot and helps to keep the barrel a 'little' cleaner between shots.

 

[etrain16]

Thanks etrain!...
At the risk of seeming pompous ...I'll make it a sticky...
Andy

No pompous - just good, useful info from an experienced shooter.

 

[Will_White]

Do you have any recommendations for Shotguns?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Do you have any recommendations for Shotguns?

Sure do...
When loading shot , the traditional load is equal amounts of shot and powder.
So if you use 80 grains of powder in your 12 gauge...use the same amount of shot.. or just a bit more.
I have used both shot flasks and measure for loading shotguns...I tend to use the same measure for both...so I can get that equal load.

To load your shotgun...
Powder...
Over powder card...* you can skip this step
Shot cushion wad...lubed or greased...
Shot...
Over shot card...
Prime or cap...

To shoot round ball from a shotgun...
( With practice you may be surprised at the accuracy out to 75 yards or so... )
Load like a rifle...
Powder , patch and ball...
Some folks have good luck with :
Powder , over powder wad , shotgun cushion wad , patch and ball....
12 gauge ------ .690-.715 round ball
16 gauge------ .650 -.662 round ball
20 gauge------ .600 -.610 round ball

For a "Buck and Ball " load...
Powder..
Over powder card...* you can skip this step
wad , lubed or greased...
Round ball of proper size...
4-8 pistol balls .32-.36 caliber...
Over shot card...
Prime or cap...

12 gauge loads 70 -80 grains of 2F
16 gauge loads 65-75 grains of 2F
20 gauge loads 55-75 grains of 2F

12 gauge 1 1/4 or 1 1/8 oz. of shot.... is a good hunting load
16 gauge 1 oz.
20 gauge 3/4 , 7/8 or 1 oz.

Hope this helps...
Andy

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Dudes, Im a flint purest, so my ways may be rough for some, this is one thing I am passionate about.
(Holy Black & roundball) (holy black is a term for real black powder, none of that sissy fake stuff)

The one thing you left out is powder charge relates to barrel length.

Because of the way holy black burns you can only burn SO MUCH in a given barrel. Barrels range form 28 inches to 44 inches for standard barrels. 50 grs in a 50cal with a 28 inch barrel will not go as far as a 50grs in a 42 inch barrel. You think this is a simple concept, not a chance.

Years back some smart folk made the Davenport Formula (La. not couch).
With it you can calculate the max VOLUME of powder for any given caliber and barrel size.
I am going to repost from an email this formula.

Let me relate this to my flinter:
It is a 42 inch barrel, 45 cal. Swamped and stress relieved Rice barrel.

My standard load was 55gr 3F, when I shot over 150 yards Id double it, two scoops of raisins.

After running the formula. a 54.5gr load does 1633fps, and a 74.5 gr load does 2033fps, and that round hunk of lead will go no faster, so I was wasting 35gr of holy black!.

You work the load backwards to see where it shoots best.

Enjoy!

****************************************************************************

Math is not my long suite. That is why I became a lawyer. But, the Davenport formula is worked by using some of that darn math they tried to teach me back in HS.

The Cubic area of the bore would be done this way:

Take the bore diameter( or groove diameter and then calculate both cubic areas. Then subtract the area created by the lands, to get the actual true Cubic area of a rifled barrel. Generally, the difference is measured in a couple of grains, and is not worth the extra brain power used.) and divide it by 2 to get the Radius of the bore. (r)

Area of a circle is determined by the formula A= PiR Squared. Pi= 3.1416. So, Multiply the Radius by itself(to square it) and then multiply that number by Pi to find the area of the circle the diameter of the Bore of your gun.

Now Multiply that number( area) times the 11.5 to get the amount of powder in one inch of your bore. Multiply that number by the length of your barrel to get the total capacity for your whole barrel.





Example:


( .50 cal. divided by 2 = .25; times .25 = .0625; times 3.1416= .19635; times 11.5 =2.2580; times 28(barrel length)=63.22 grains of powder.)

If you want to know the cubic space inside one inch of a .50 caliber rifle, you can use .50 as the diameter, or measure the actual land to land dimension, and then the groove diameter, and then the groove depth, to work out EXACT the cubic area of that particular bore.



Here is how to calculate the Davenport Formula:


.50 divided by 2 = .25

.25 x .25 = .0625

.0625 times Pi( 3.1416)= 0.19635

.19635 x 11.5 = 2.2580

2.2580 x 28 inches( barrel length)= 63.22 grains of powder.

___________________


Assume you are shooting a 28 inch .50 caliber rifle barrel. The cubic area of that bore will be 28 x .19635 = 5.4978 cubic inches.

Now, because you do have grooves in that barrel, you can refine that a bit more.

Assume that the actual groove diameter of your gun is .501" ( my .50 caliber rifle's actual bore diameter)

Run the Davenport formula and you get:

.501 divided by 2 = .2505

.2505 x .2505 = .0627502

.0627502 x 3.1416 = 0.197136

0.197136 x 11.5 = 2.267064

2.267064 x 28 = 63.477792 grains of powder.

A cube of anything is determined by multiply the height times the width, times the depth, of the object. When you need to compute the cubic area of a cylinder, or other non-square object, it gets a bit more involved.

Now assume that the bore diameter is actually .490, and groove depth is .0055"( .501 minus .490 divided by 2 = .0055")( again, my gun's actual bore diameter)

Now assume that there are 6 lands and grooves, of equal width. The circumference of that bore( .490) is .769692" Divide that by 12( 6 grooves and 6 lands) and you get the width of the lands and grooves to be .064141".

To adjust the cubic area to correct for these "obstructions", you need to subtract from 5.519808 the area occupied by those 6 lands, that are .064141" wide, and .0055" deep.

So, multiply 6 time times .064141 times .0055 = .0003527"

5.519808 - .0003527 = 5.5194553 Cubic Inches


______________________________

 

[Andy54Hawken]

The one thing you left out is powder charge relates to barrel length.

Yes barrel length will effect how much powder is actually used or "burnt" , and yes there will be more unburnt powder from a .54 rifle with a 28 inch barrel , using my 80 grain charge , than my Hawken in .54 with a 36 inch barrel, but....
In my experience barrel length does not effect the powder charge as much as one might think , with the loads that I listed in my OP...
( At least with today's black powder ...not powder from the 1800 and 1900's )

It is a good general rule to use the same amount powder as caliber for starting out to see what your rifle likes...
Example a .50 caliber rifle starting load should be 50 grains of 2F...but the rifle may shoot best with say 65 grains of 2F....It is important to see what load your rifle likes and stick to it...every barrel / rifle will shoot differently....
Also you should remember to go down about 10 grains if you use 3F in rifles...as it "burns" at a higher pressure...

And to make it clear...the OP was meant as starting point for those who wanted some general information on safe loads...
Not a final word , but just a simple process to start shooting....
Andy

 

[Bon Sauvage]

My standard load was 55gr 3F, when I shot over 150 yards Id double it, two scoops of raisins.

After running the formula. a 54.5gr load does 1633fps, and a 74.5 gr load does 2033fps, and that round hunk of lead will go no faster, so I was wasting 35gr of holy black!.



Friend, the Davenport formula is a formula used to determine the most efficient or optimum loading only. Trust me, your two scoops of raisins will shoot faster then your 74.5 grains but not nearly as efficient.

 

[Daddyd1]

Can anyone help me? I have a T/C 56 cal. smooth bore, it shoots #5 shot pretty well, I would love to work up a good buckshot load for it, I cant get it to shoot buckshot good at all, I have adjusted powder, I've adjusted number of buckshot I put in it, I had someone tell me that just because it's a smooth bore that its not made to shoot buckshot, can this be true? I know someone else who has the same gun and his shoots buckshot great what am I doing wrong?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

@Daddyd1
Your T/C should shoot buckshot...
Just as you noted...finding the right load combination may take some time and effort.

"I can't get it to shoot buckshot good at all..."
What does this mean or look like...
A poor pattern....not hitting at the point of aim...?

Have you copied the load that works well from your friends gun...?

Can you give me a list of your load...
Powder charge , wadding , cards , shot cushion , over powder card , etc....
Thanks
Andy

 

[Ura-Ki]

To go along with what Andy posted @Daddyd1 , could you share the specifics of your load, especially how you are loading the buckshot down the barrel?
I think I may know what the problem is, but I wanna be sure we get the details of YOUR load, before proceeding!

 

[Daddyd1]

I did copy my friends load, it is 80 grains of FFF 28ga. shot cup, 9-10 buckshot (32 cal.)and a jumbo cotton ball, mine won't pattern good or it doesn't hit point of impact, every time it shoots to the left, the next time it shoots to the right, I've used over the power cards, shot wads, shot cups, even lubed cotton balls over the powder, I've dropped as low as 50 gr. of powder, I've shot, black horn, 777, clean shot, etc, it does seem to like 777 the best I did figure that out, also it likes 209 primers better then #11 caps and musket caps but I just can't get it to shoot in the same spot every time

 

[Daddyd1]

To go along with what Andy posted @Daddyd1 , could you share the specifics of your load, especially how you are loading the buckshot down the barrel?
I think I may know what the problem is, but I wanna be sure we get the details of YOUR load, before proceeding!

When it shoots the best, 70 gr. of 777, 28 ga shot cup, push the cup all the way down the barrel, pour the buckshot in gently shake barrel to settle the load, then push over the shot card down on top of buckshot

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Hmmm...
With it not hitting the same spot every time...
Are you placing your head / cheek in the same spot every time...?
Also...be careful to not "roll" or tilt the shotgun...sometimes this happens with gun that lacks a rear sight.
It maybe that this is happening without you knowing it.

I do know that weather even a slight change , can affect a black powder load....
Not liking to shoot black powder substitutes , I can only guess that , that may happen with them as well...

Two quick guesses here...going to have to think some more on this....
Andy

 

[Ura-Ki]

How tight fitting is that Shot cup? Also, are you "Packing" the shot and the card?
I don't shoot a lot of Grape Shot, but I have always patched them weather it's a shot cup or pre rolled charge, or, I use a tight fitting felt wad under the shot charge, and another tight fitting wad or' the top! I can get a decent pattern out to about 50 yards or so, depending on the powder charge and shot size!
Another thing, I usually mold paper sabots that can be used for grape shot and those serve to eliminate much of the head aches! Takes some experimenting with to get them to the right size for YOUR bore, but they sure do work well once you get them right! This is especially useful with the larger bore smooth bores, as they can be used to shoot round ball or conicals with out issue out of the same tool!

 

[Roundball58]

This should probably have its own thread.

No experience with this gun, but just general comments. You are trying to shoot a 12 ga load (3 drams and 9-10 OO buck) out of a 28 ga shotgun. The 00 buck is probably not stacking uniformly and definitely is not contained by the plastic wad. Try a load more in line with a 28 ga. Drop down to #4 buck (not bird shot). You should be able to stack them uniformly inside the shotcup. I believe you should be able to get 15 or 16 pellets in the shot cup which will give you a 3/4 oz shot charge vice the 1 1/8 oz or so you're trying now. Powder charge should also be in line with a 28 ga. ie. 2-2 1/4 drams or around 60 grains. Having shot the heathen plastic wads in my muzzleloader shotguns, you will find the plastic tends to melt unless it is protected by an over powder card and/or fiber cushion wad. A simple over shot wad should keep the shot in place.

As Andy noted, POI shift tends to be a shooter glitch and not so much a load issue. Pattern is a different animal.

Is your pattern diameter varying by a large degree? ie at 20 yards is the spread of the buckshot 20" for one shot and then 30" for the next? Give us some examples of why you don't think your load is shooting well and why you think your buddies load is shooting "great".

 

[Daddyd1]

This should probably have its own thread.

No experience with this gun, but just general comments. You are trying to shoot a 12 ga load (3 drams and 9-10 OO buck) out of a 28 ga shotgun. The 00 buck is probably not stacking uniformly and definitely is not contained by the plastic wad. Try a load more in line with a 28 ga. Drop down to #4 buck (not bird shot). You should be able to stack them uniformly inside the shotcup. I believe you should be able to get 15 or 16 pellets in the shot cup which will give you a 3/4 oz shot charge vice the 1 1/8 oz or so you're trying now. Powder charge should also be in line with a 28 ga. ie. 2-2 1/4 drams or around 60 grains. Having shot the heathen plastic wads in my muzzleloader shotguns, you will find the plastic tends to melt unless it is protected by an over shot card and/or fiber cushion wad. A simple over shot wad should keep the shot in place.

As Andy noted, POI shift tends to be a shooter glitch and not so much a load issue. Pattern is a different animal.

Is your pattern diameter varying by a large degree? ie at 20 yards is the spread of the buckshot 20" for one shot and then 30" for the next? Give us some examples of why you don't think your load is shooting well and why you think your buddies load is shooting "great".

I'm pretty sure I'm putting my head in the same spot every time, most of the time I'm shooting off sand bags, the shot cup doesn't fit as tight in my gun as it does my buddies, I never thought about dropping down to #4 buck that does make since, at 40 yards my buddy can just about tear a paper plate into pieces, I'm lucky to put one buckshot in it at 30 yards, our ranges are closed down for now because of the covid19 but when they open back up I will try the #4 buck with 60 gr.of powder, my buddy told me how to fix it was to sell him my gun but I really like it and would like to hunt with it

 

[Roundball58]

Just for S&G's, next time you go out, hand your buddy YOUR shotgun and have HIM load it with HIS components and see what happens. The looser wad fit statement raises some questions. If he's tearing up a standard paper plate at 40 yds his load is doing way better than most modern shotguns at that distance.