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If the ladder method has any merit then I think my reloading technique needs more consistency. If your familiar with the ladder method I can take a pic of the target.

shot, vel, grain...
1, 2707, 47g
2, 2781, 47.2
3, 2730, 47.4
4, 2796, 47.6
5, 2764, 47.8
6, 2773, 48
7, 2828, 48.2
8, 2895, 48.4
9, 2880, 48.6
10, 2827, 48.8
11, 2830, 49
12, 2849, 49.2
13, 2912, 49.4
14, 2891, 49.6
15, 2911, 49.8
16, 2944, 50

Since I was on the bench next to you may I suggest something?


You were shooting strings and then using your barrel cooler which is good....expect your rifle has a standard thin profile and the number of shots you were taking between cooldown...........I would suggest just a couple shots in between cooldown sessions........just my opinion. If you were already doing that my apologies. I was paying most attention to myself but it seemed you were taking quite a few shots before letting things cool. If I'm wrong, ignore me. :D
 
Actually it is a very good way. If he finds nodes that the velocity doesn't change much over a .3-.6gr charge variation those will be the accuracy nodes for that powder. He can then load 5 rounds in the middle of those nodes and check groups and chrono results and prove them out. Throwing accurate charge weights is very important however.
I guess if you wish not to waste bullets or powder, but it is not the best in my opinion. Testing only one round at a certain weight does not give you anything but one velocity. That velocity could be at the top of its spread or the bottom of its spread. That's if it spreads, which you wouldn't know about since you are only testing one round at that charge weight. If loading for velocities and not consistency, this could be a great way to simply find what charge weight equates the desired velocity.

If going for velocity only, you could end up discounting your components best powder charge weight. The one that has the best potential for consistent preciseness.
 
I have found in 40 years of reloading it pays to have an open mind as there is a lot of dogma attached to the craft and it is easy to get caught up in it. There is always more than one way to skin that cat. The Satterlee method and variations of it actually saves components compared to other methods while honing in on that precision more efficiently. If you find that widest node where powder charge variations don't change your velocity much you will have a very good shot at a consistently accurate load even with slight loading variations.
 
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With good chrono data target poi is almost irrelevant to me at this point until you settle on some nodes. Did you ever find out at what cartidge over all length the bullet contacts the lands in your rifle and what is max length that fits in your magazine? What cartridge oal did you use and was this depth consistent for all rounds? Also what is your barrel length? I see a couple potential nodes in your data but I know you are looking for 3000fps and Rl 19 might not get you there. Since powder is hard to get and you have the Rl 19 already, you could explore the top end a bit more paying particular attention to your powder charge weight consistency. I will withhold my recommendations until you provide answers to above questions. I would also be trying to buy, borrow or trade for other suitable powders with slower burn rates than Rl 19. Your rifle just may not be happy with RL 19 and this is what you are trying to ascertain. Congrats on your first successful reloads!

Edit I see now from previous posts you are probably using Imr 4831 not Rl 19. If you have a 24" barrel or longer you definitely have room to push a bit more with Imr 4831.
I did measure OAL and set bullet depth -.025" from that, measuring from the ogive with a bullet comparator gauge. That parts consistent though I dont have a metric for knowing where to start other than the instructions that came with the gauge suggested -.020 to -.040 (max) from touching the lands.
Barrel length is 24" with 1:10 twist rate.

Its true Id prefer to reach at least 3000fps but dont mind lower if that gets the best groups. I have 2 pounds of IMR 4831 and 1 pound of R23. The powder I used for this is IMR 4831 and should be a good powder to reach 3000fps with good groups, I think. I suspect my charge measuring I need to slow way down on weighing or find a new scale.
This is why I need to find an efficient load development method using least amount of powder since powder is near impossible to find Im not expecting to find any in stores for this year I got very lucky to score what I have. Im guessing about 120 rounds per pound, so far Ive burned 20 and uncertain if I got anywhere.
 
I did measure OAL and set bullet depth -.025" from that, measuring from the ogive with a bullet comparator gauge. That parts consistent though I dont have a metric for knowing where to start other than the instructions that came with the gauge suggested -.020 to -.040 (max) from touching the lands.
Barrel length is 24" with 1:10 twist rate.

Its true Id prefer to reach at least 3000fps but dont mind lower if that gets the best groups. I have 2 pounds of IMR 4831 and 1 pound of R23. The powder I used for this is IMR 4831 and should be a good powder to reach 3000fps with good groups, I think. I suspect my charge measuring I need to slow way down on weighing or find a new scale.
This is why I need to find an efficient load development method using least amount of powder since powder is near impossible to find Im not expecting to find any in stores for this year I got very lucky to score what I have. Im guessing about 120 rounds per pound, so far Ive burned 20 and uncertain if I got anywhere.
In my experience, the fastest load isn't always the most consistent.

If speed is what you want, you can always try again with a lighter bullet.

In the past, I tried to test and load using the same bottle of powder. As I've have seen inconsistencies between batches. Depending on your charge weights, you should get a few hundred rounds out of a bottle. So if you aren't shooting a ton, it shouldn't be hard to get what you want out of one bottle. Find the consistent load and load the whole box of bullets at it. Shoot them and move on to the next reloading project.

These days I'm sort of loading for speed. Aka sub Sonic. I don't really care much for consistent loads anymore as I'm not really shooting at longer distances anymore. If I were to load for speed. I'd likely skip 90% of the charges and start closer to the top and find a consistent load there. If the powder, bullet didn't get me the speed. I'd switch bullets to something lighter. So, if you are looking for that 3000fps, use the data you just created, and skip what didn't produce anything near it.
 
Ok good info. Their appears to be a node between 49.4 and 49.8 gr. You might explore it by loading 3-5'rounds at 49.6 and checking for accuracy and low sd to see if it is indeed a good node. Nosler's data shows quite a bit higher velocity at the top end with the same barrel length as your's. That tells me you have headroom to push on it a bit harder. If it were me I would load 50 -50.6 in .1gr increments watching carefully for any pressure signs while looking for another node. The fact you are shooting all over a chrono is great and is the safest way to work on the upper end. If you are below their published speed at their max load of 50 gr even while using slightly higher charge means that you are not over pressure.
 
some guys will tell you to start 5-10% below minimum then work up. personally i usually start in the middle area and work up. published data is conservative for liability reasons IMO.

Out of 5 sources, I find the lowest low, and lowest high. This is now my range of operations.

I'd say that 90% of my best shooting load developments have come from almost the middle of that spread +/- .5grains or so.

When primers, powder and bullets were flowing like the rivers of capastrana, I used to do a center point on that space, load in .3gr increments above and below that mark to a total of 1.5gr below and 1.5gr above. That would give me 10 loads I could tinker with. Once you find a node, you can zero in with .2gr increments above/below for a 1gr spread.

That is all based on not moving the bullet forward and using a standard length. Only one load is above that median/average spread and it is for .308 on bullets .015" from the lands. With that one I'm a full 1.5gr over max published load data.
 
I guess if you wish not to waste bullets or powder, but it is not the best in my opinion. Testing only one round at a certain weight does not give you anything but one velocity.
The backstory on this is I was reading on the web different development methods and this one, the Ladder Test, seemed to make sense. I think what tripped me up here is for a brand new beginner... this was literally my first ever reloads, I wasnt consistent enough in measuring my charges so my velocity "ladder" is too erratic to find any obvious "flat" spots where the velocity doesnt change much with the charge increase for a few rounds. If I understand the method correctly it quickly shows the velocity that the barrel harmonics for my rifle like best, essentially what all methods home in on for those wanting accuracy.

In normal times a total beginner would have ample supply of powder/primers etc just go to the store and buy more if needed and try again.
 
The backstory on this is I was reading on the web different development methods and this one, the Ladder Test, seemed to make sense. I think what tripped me up here is for a brand new beginner... this was literally my first ever reloads, I wasnt consistent enough in measuring my charges so my velocity "ladder" is too erratic to find any obvious "flat" spots where the velocity doesnt change much with the charge increase for a few rounds. If I understand the method correctly it quickly shows the velocity that the barrel harmonics for my rifle like best, essentially what all methods home in on for those wanting accuracy.

In normal times a total beginner would have ample supply of powder/primers etc just go to the store and buy more if needed and try again.
True, in better times, this may be easier. However, you are jumping in to, what I would say is, intermediate loading practices. Something I didn't start doing until years after I started reloading.

I loaded mostly for minor consistency at first, and price.

Not until many years later did I start looking to load for consistency by removing as many variables as possible. This sort of loading isn't exactly cheaper than factory if you ask me. At times it can become much more costly than buying factory ammo.

In reloading, there will always be variables that can affect precision. Choosing which ones you can eliminate and which ones you want to eliminate is all you can do!

I wish you the best in your endeavors! You'll get there, enjoy the process and before you know it you'll have a few go to loads behind your belt.
 
True, in better times, this may be easier. However, you are jumping in to, what I would say is, intermediate loading practices. Something I didn't start doing until years after I started reloading.
yup, exactly my dilemma . I would love to take a simpler heuristic approach to this I would just redo my test and if it didnt work again move onto another method or just keep trying just go to the store and buy another pound of powder or even a different powder.
Im in over my head kinda but will get there. This forum has been super helpful to ask questions and Im grateful for everyones replies.
 
I wish I knew then what I know now. Yes you are going a bit into the deep end but learning has already occurred and more will come. I like your chances in this component starved environment. Your first foray was far from a waste as many things became clear. As far as I am concerned the more accurate your handloads become the harder it would be to duplicate in factory fodder at any cost.
 
Ok good info. Their appears to be a node between 49.4 and 49.8 gr. You might explore it by loading 3-5'rounds at 49.6 and checking for accuracy and low sd to see if it is indeed a good node. Nosler's data shows quite a bit higher velocity at the top end with the same barrel length as your's. That tells me you have headroom to push on it a bit harder. If it were me I would load 50 -50.6 in .1gr increments watching carefully for any pressure signs while looking for another node. The fact you are shooting all over a chrono is great and is the safest way to work on the upper end. If you are below their published speed at their max load of 50 gr even while using slightly higher charge means that you are not over pressure.
I was looking at that node as well. Also 48.8 thru 49.2.
Just that these are small nodes I was hoping for a larger node as the ladder article suggested, there example was very obvious.
The tough choice here is choosing to use this data to home in on another ladder test, sort of a gamble with such a small sample node. Also, the vertical spread of those few shots on the actual target is pretty rough too which isnt good. Id feel more comfortable exploring these possible nodes if those shots were closer vertically. (based on my understanding of this ladder test method)
 
I wish I knew then what I know now. Yes you are going a bit into the deep end but learning has already occurred and more will come. I like your chances in this component starved environment. Your first foray was far from a waste as many things became clear. As far as I am concerned the more accurate your handloads become the harder it would be to duplicate in factory fodder at any cost.
I think its a fun challenge that Im up for and well within my mental range, I just wish there wasnt this supply/demand issue with powder etc in case I make mistakes or learning curves along the way. Needing to nail it first round kinda takes the fun of the challenge out, adding stress anyways.
Theres definetely more resources to jump farther into things these day from the start, a quick web seach "load development" lands me ladder tests and optimal charge tests in a few seconds.... and plenty of pro shooting blogs and forums to cipher thru. This forum is the best though... :)
 
When you find that sweet spot, immediately grab as much powder as possible with a marching lot number. Different lots of powder often have differing characteristics.
I wish....

If it was available Id drop the money on 8lber right now just even on the chances IMR4831 will work. I cant even find a totally different powder that would work to try.
Goal is a load by fall hunting season and only have 2lbs to figure it out (~1.9lbs now,...). Not moving my factory zero till I get tight groups.
 
At 7000 gr to the pound and roughly 50 gr per load, that works out to about 280 loads +/-. You should have no problem working up a load AND having ammo to hunt with.
 
At 7000 gr to the pound and roughly 50 gr per load, that works out to about 280 loads +/-. You should have no problem working up a load AND having ammo to hunt with.
for some reason I kept doing that math on only 1 pound and forgot about the other, your right I should be able to. Good catch
 
So for my first set of loads the book says min/max 46-50g I would go 46, 46.5, 47, 47.5, 48, 48.5, 50 for my first "ladder"? The article suggested .2 but would the .5 resolution reveal the sweet spot enough to narrow the next "ladder" session with .2 or .1 resolution?

(if Im understanding this ladder method correct)
that works good for me and long range precision
 
I think its a fun challenge that Im up for and well within my mental range, I just wish there wasnt this supply/demand issue with powder etc in case I make mistakes or learning curves along the way. Needing to nail it first round kinda takes the fun of the challenge out, adding stress anyways.
Theres definetely more resources to jump farther into things these day from the start, a quick web seach "load development" lands me ladder tests and optimal charge tests in a few seconds.... and plenty of pro shooting blogs and forums to cipher thru. This forum is the best though... :)
It is the best because there's a lot of folks here in the reloading forum with a lot of experience who don't get offended easily. We like to hear and share different ideas and let the new guy make up his own mind how to proceed safely without getting affuddled. We just respectfully disagree on some things and are still excellent to each other. It's a good place to learn the craft. I don't even go anywhere else anymore and most of the posts are trustworthy. I've made great friends here.

That said I'm glad you're interested in the process and willing to experience some failures. One thing I would like to share is that sometimes you just get a stinker of a combo. I never could get cfe223 to give me good accuracy in my ar5.56. I must have burned 100 rounds I really wanted it to work:D. I tried some blc2 and all of a sudden it was shooting like a competition guno_O. Details are important but don't try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I think you just need some further testing with the couple of charges you mentioned to find one you like; then tweak from there. I used to have a 22-250 that didn't care about seating depth at all it was all about charge weight and primer brand. They are all unique that's what makes finding the combo fascinating. It's nirvana when you hit it you'll see...don't get discouraged. We all have differing ideas about what is acceptable for accuracy, precision, and velocity.
 
I think I found a node.... 50.5gn - 52gn ?


0314211937.jpg

After mulling it over several days I gave up on the Ladder Method and went with the Optimal Charge Method using .5gn increments as DizzyJ mentioned above. Still looking over the results and contemplating my next move... thinking either another OCM test fine tuning the range between 50gn and52gn or go straight to playing with different seating depths at 51.2 or 51.5gn.... contemplating if I should discount 1 or 2 of the shots as fliers.
 

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