Load Development Method

[Koda]

First rodeo here.
I'm at the point ready to install primers, charge and seat the bullet but whats the fastest or easiest way to find the load that works for me? My initial thought was to load say 5rds at minimum charge with the bullet set farther back (but I'm still not certain how much setback...), then load another 5rds at the next charge up in 1 grain increment, etc. (but keep the same setback). Find which set groups best then fine tune next range session in .1g increments, then play with bullet seating, if needed.... But then thinking about this, could take many trips to the range to find the recipe for me....

Ive read a little bit about the ladder method but don't fully understand it, yet. Found this good article on it and it says to plot my grouping at 300yds... but how would I know, or trust... the new charges would even be on paper at 300yds (rifle is currently zeroed with factory ammo and I can hit 300yds)? How do I know what bullet depth should even be to start with? note: I have a Hornady OAL gauge and bullet comparator. Hornady suggests .020-.040" setback so Id probably start with .040" but would that be too much pressure on the min charge?

Load Development: Ladder Test Method - LoadDevelopment.com

The ladder test method for development of a load for your rifle is proven by reloaders and expert shooters accross the world to work. Here's how.

www.loaddevelopment.com

If I follow this method using Nosler load data for my round, says min 46g max 50g so Id start at 47g and load 10 rounds with .2g increments for a total of 16rds, find the "sweet spot" where the grouping and velocity is best then repeat next range session with a set of rounds charged in .1g increments within the min/max sweet spot of the first session? Is that correct?


Caliber: 25-05, bullet: Nosler Partition 120g, powder: IMR 4831, load data from Nosler

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[v0lcom13sn0w]

some guys will tell you to start 5-10% below minimum then work up. personally i usually start in the middle area and work up. published data is conservative for liability reasons IMO.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

a good rule of thumb is faster isnt always more accurate just FYI. you gotta find the sweet spot for your rifle. i do .5gr increments.

 

[Catfishmoon]

Speaking in general terms regarding loads for 9mm pistol... I load 10 rounds at the low end of published data and then 10 more after increasing the amount of powder by .2 gr., ect..

4.6 - 4.8 - 5.0 - 5.2 - 5.4.......

Look at the cases and primers after the rounds have been shot for signs of over-pressure.... Error on the side of caution.

 

[saxon]

i start on the low side and work up to high side in 1 grain increments and published COAL
then when i find the most accurate of loads then you play with COAL with that load

 

[No_Regerts]

Since I'm not a competition shooter and most deer I see where I hunt are 200-450 yards out, I generally shoot stuff that shoots flat to that range. Speed is as important to me as raw accuracy and I load to find a happy medium of both. I'll live with groups of 2 MOA at 400 yards if I am pushing 3200fps+ from the muzzle and dropping no more than 12 to 15 inches at 400 from zero.

I load 10 to saami spec length, a few grains under maximum. I then use that to get zeroed at 100. Then I measure my chamber using a Hornady OAL gauge and load to .02 off the lands, then load 5 rounds at that length with charges increasing at .5gr until I see pressure signs. I back off .5 from pressure and then adjust OAL til I get the groups I want. Then I verify at distance to see if it stays consistent. My final zero is 200-250 yards depending on ballistics. This way, I can aim on hair out to nearly 400.

 

[TTSX]

definitely, definitely make at least 2 rounds at minimum. I made a ladder with 139 grain bullets and a popped a primer at the minimum rung. I did not test the next steps. I still have no idea what went wrong because after pulling down an re-measuring, everything was spot-on. Used that same bullet with different powder and the same powder with different bullets and nothing went south. Just walk it slow, you'll get where you need to be with patience.

 

[Koda]

a good rule of thumb is faster isnt always more accurate just FYI. you gotta find the sweet spot for your rifle. i do .5gr increments.

So for my first set of loads the book says min/max 46-50g I would go 46, 46.5, 47, 47.5, 48, 48.5, 50 for my first "ladder"? The article suggested .2 but would the .5 resolution reveal the sweet spot enough to narrow the next "ladder" session with .2 or .1 resolution?

(if Im understanding this ladder method correct)

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

So for my first set of loads the book says min/max 46-50g I would go 46, 46.5, 47, 47.5, 48, 48.5, 50 for my first "ladder"? The article suggested .2 but would the .5 resolution reveal the sweet spot enough to narrow the next "ladder" session with .2 or .1 resolution?

(if Im understanding this ladder method correct)

from my experience, 0.5gr increments would get you close then you can tune from there.

the nice thing about .2 is that its so small of an increase, once youre close, you'll know right away if you need to keep it, go up, or go back down.

 

[DizzyJ]

I would vary the charges by 0.5gr for that cartridge. Then you can fine tune from there.

As of right now I load up 4 cartridges at each charge and shoot them at 100 yds. A different bullseye for each charge weight.

I shoot round robin (shoot one at 46.5, bullseye #1, then 47.0 at bullseye #2, 47.5 at bullseye #3, etc etc until I've gone through one shot for each load (watching for pressure signs along the way).

Then I'll shoot the 2nd load of 46.5 at bullseye #1 and repeat until I've put two shots of each load at its respective bullseye.

(These charge weights are just for illustration).

Continue doing this for all loads at their respective bullseye until you have 3-shots on each bull.

If any of those have two shots touching or close together and the third one is way off, I'll put a 4th shot into the respective group to see if it was the load or me pulling a shot.

That should get you at least 2 nodes to verify later with 5-rounds each. Then once you've verified it's a good node, you can play with seating depth if you so desire.

It would not hurt to start at the bottom of the load recommendation. Lots of times you can get away with starting in the middle, but I've got two savage rifles that start showing pressure signs 1/2 way through the load listings.

Remember, you're new to this and it's ok to go slow.

 

[DizzyJ]

Round robin because it helps to spread out variables such as the barrel heating up, outside temperatures, etc.

 

[Member 34319]

Chronograph is usually my go to tool when developing loads.

I don't really do that type of shooting much anymore, but here is what I did when I did, or some of it at least...

Research load for gun and bullet weight online. See what others have had good luck with. Remmy 700 in 308 with 20" barrel and 150s and there are likely 7-10 gun forums that have discussed them.

Compare that to load data in manuals.

Start low.

Load 5 rounds at .5 grain intervals till max, maybe 5-10% over if earlier research showed possible. Usually ending up with 30-50 loaded rounds to test. Sometimes up to 100 loads to test if I want to try multiple powders. Speed is great in all, but it can be inconsistent. Don't think that the max load or close there of will be the best load.

All of these loads have the bullet set at a typical overall length listed by manuals. I pick one and use it for all of these loads.

Chrono loads while testing at 100 yards off bags or sled.

From here I would have my starting point. Yes this is the starting point, for me. Now I have a better idea of what powder charges and powder is consistent with my gun and the bullets I am using.

I usually pick the best 5 powder charges, or less if they all suck. Based on the deviation over my ability to shoot (aka I pick the least amount of deviation over my best group)

I'll then take that powder charge and start messing around with seating depth. Usually 5 at the standard depth listed in the manual, that they were all sat at prior, 5 right at the throat, and 1-4 lots of 5 loaded to .005" increments off of the throat. Again, chronographing all of it. To ensure my earlier results are sound, and that seating depth doesn't change the deviations. From these loads I to pay more attention to my groupings and I try to shoot a little better as well.

From there, I might start weighing out bullets, measuring neck thickness, etc.

I don't really do much of that anymore though.

Consistency is the name of the game. Accurate loads will follow when you find consistent speeds and brass processing. After that, it's up to the nut behind the stock.

 

[Dylanss180]

What I have done that works really well for me and has been really fast. Look up OBT and Quick Load. I can usually get something dialed in within about 20-30 rounds.

 

[Koda]

Home from the range today where I tried the "Ladder Test" I shared above and struggling to understand how to read the data. I cant decide if I screwed up the test with inconsistent loads* or the resolution of such a broad starting point was not fine enough... I'm leaning towards the prior because my extreme spread is too great for what I expected from handloads and I'm not really finding a flat enough spot or "sweet spot" in the ladder unless I consider a rather large vertical spread (on the target) with a large spread in velocity... much larger than I expected with .2g increments anyways. I'm not certain if the Ladder Test can be used in stages to find finer resolution Ladder Tests.

*I think I introduced inconsistency in charges learning to use my scale for the first time... A Frankford Arsenal DS-750 digital scale. I chose this scale because it was cheap, as I am out of money from buying all this stuff yet seemed to get good reviews. My ladder test used 16 rounds and somewhere a bit over half way loading them I discovered the scale would take way longer than I was giving it to produce the final readout deviating +/-.1grains, Let me know if I need a new/better scale?

Takeaways from this weekend was either learn to use my processes and equipment better (scale) or get a new scale, and I observed no signs of excessive pressure within my experience level... (oh boy...)

Reading thru the replies here and see references to other tests like OBT (optimal barrel time) method, the OCW (optimal charge weight), need to read up on these more this week.

 

[osprey]

So you shot them all over a chrono? If so post up the results and we may be able to help out with some interpretation.

 

[Koda]

So you shot them all over a chrono? If so post up the results and we may be able to help out with some interpretation.

If the ladder method has any merit then I think my reloading technique needs more consistency. If your familiar with the ladder method I can take a pic of the target.

shot, vel, grain...
1, 2707, 47g
2, 2781, 47.2
3, 2730, 47.4
4, 2796, 47.6
5, 2764, 47.8
6, 2773, 48
7, 2828, 48.2
8, 2895, 48.4
9, 2880, 48.6
10, 2827, 48.8
11, 2830, 49
12, 2849, 49.2
13, 2912, 49.4
14, 2891, 49.6
15, 2911, 49.8
16, 2944, 50

 

[osprey]

With good chrono data target poi is almost irrelevant to me at this point until you settle on some nodes. Did you ever find out at what cartidge over all length the bullet contacts the lands in your rifle and what is max length that fits in your magazine? What cartridge oal did you use and was this depth consistent for all rounds? Also what is your barrel length? I see a couple potential nodes in your data but I know you are looking for 3000fps and Rl 19 might not get you there. Since powder is hard to get and you have the Rl 19 already, you could explore the top end a bit more paying particular attention to your powder charge weight consistency. I will withhold my recommendations until you provide answers to above questions. I would also be trying to buy, borrow or trade for other suitable powders with slower burn rates than Rl 19. Your rifle just may not be happy with RL 19 and this is what you are trying to ascertain. Congrats on your first successful reloads!

Edit I see now from previous posts you are probably using Imr 4831 not Rl 19. If you have a 24" barrel or longer you definitely have room to push a bit more with Imr 4831.

 

[BigDog67]

It was pretty nice out the day, so I took my Mossberg MVP to the range to try some new Long Range loads I had done up to try and find the one that would give me the tightest group. I was the only one there for about half an hour and was having fun being by myself. After a bit another guy shows up to shoot which is okay, it is a club range and I don't expect to have it all to myself all the time. So, when he got ready to put up his target I went down range to get a better look at the groups I had been getting so far. For what I was doing, my "target" is a 4x6 sheet of cardboard with just a series of Xs, just something to center the crosshairs on. I had shot 3 groups of 5 and had a couple loads that showed real promise, with 5 or 6 others to go. This guy comes over, looks at my target and says "You're not hitting the Xs." "No I said, I'm just shooting for groups right now, to see which load the rifle likes." "But you're not hitting the Xs, how can you have a group if you don' hit the X?" So I tried to explain that when I found the load that gave me the tightest group possible, that I would adjust the scope for the new load. "But how do you know which group is the tightest if you're not hitting the Xs?" At this point I took down my target and told him to have a nice day. Hopefully tomorrow will dawn sunny and idiot free.

 

[Member 34319]

Did you load one round with each weight of powder? Not exactly the best way to see if the charge can be consistent if you ask me. At least 5 shots per different weight to get an average and to see what the spread is with that charge alone. Keeping all other variables constant of coarse.

 

[osprey]

Did you load one round with each weight of powder? Not exactly the best way to see if the charge can be consistent if you ask me. At least 5 shots per different weight to get an average and to see what the spread is with that charge alone. Keeping all other variables constant of coarse.

Actually it is a very good way. If he finds nodes that the velocity doesn't change much over a .3-.6gr charge variation those will be the accuracy nodes for that powder. He can then load 5 rounds in the middle of those nodes and check groups and chrono results and prove them out. Throwing accurate charge weights is very important however.