Living Trust Question

[MacBookProAR]

Maybe this is best to ask a lawyer, but if someone already has it would be nice to know.

If I set up a living trust with my NFA stuff (suppressors) in it and put my wife in it I think that she can use that item without me around correct? Well does that go for other people that do not live at my place of residence like say my dad or brother? I know that putting them in gives them some legal rights that if not careful with could cause some problems, but I'm just curious because my dad was asking about having a suppressor that we could both use, but didn't know the legality of who has to be present for that to be legal (ie he takes it out shooting without me around but with the proper documentation)

Thanks for any help

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[Pnutz]

Maybe this is best to ask a lawyer, but if someone already has it would be nice to know.

If I set up a living trust with my NFA stuff (suppressors) in it and put my wife in it I think that she can use that item without me around correct? Well does that go for other people that do not live at my place of residence like say my dad or brother? I know that putting them in gives them some legal rights that if not careful with could cause some problems, but I'm just curious because my dad was asking about having a suppressor that we could both use, but didn't know the legality of who has to be present for that to be legal (ie he takes it out shooting without me around but with the proper documentation)

Thanks for any help

Your best bet is to ask a lawyer who deals with NFA stuff and trusts. I've seen a thread on ARFCOM with a lawyer recomending his services for just this matter. I'm sure if you google an NFA trust lawyer you could find one.

Oh I found one for ya http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/how-to-purchase-a-class-3-fire/

 

[fromotoc]

I'm not a lawyer. But if you put them as trustees, they can use the NFA item. Also, if you put them as trustees, I'm pretty sure they can sell it too without asking you. Something to consider. Are you using WillMaker?

 

[MacBookProAR]

I'm not a lawyer. But if you put them as trustees, they can use the NFA item. Also, if you put them as trustees, I'm pretty sure they can sell it too without asking you. Something to consider. Are you using WillMaker?

I plan to use willmaker. I have a friend that has done a few and he is going to help me with it.

 

[SVT]

If you do a trust, do it right and hire an attorney. Willmaker and other quick trust things are only asking for trouble. If you do plan on using Willmaker or some such software, you may want to read this first:

<broken link removed>

 

[fromotoc]

If you do a trust, do it right and hire an attorney. Willmaker and other quick trust things are only asking for trouble. If you do plan on using Willmaker or some such software, you may want to read this first:

<broken link removed>

Ummm.... what about all the people who have used Willmaker and have no problems with the ATF after numerous tax stamps?

 

[SVT]

Ummm.... what about all the people who have used Willmaker and have no problems with the ATF after numerous tax stamps?

You're kidding right?
What about pre & post samples that have been mistakenly approved in the past? What about DOD equipt (e.g. DD's) that were approved and then taken back by the gov? What about the Akins Accelerator that was approved I believe 3x by the ATF FTB before they changed their mind. Just because ATF approves something, doesn't mean that it won't come back to bite you later if it's not right. Hey what the heck, go with Willmaker, it's free Internet advice and worth every sent you pay for it.

 

[fromotoc]

You're kidding right?
What about pre & post samples that have been mistakenly approved in the past? What about DOD equipt (e.g. DD's) that were approved and then taken back by the gov? What about the Akins Accelerator that was approved I believe 3x by the ATF FTB before they changed their mind. Just because ATF approves something, doesn't mean that it won't come back to bite you later if it's not right. Hey what the heck, go with Willmaker, it's free Internet advice and worth every sent you pay for it.

Um.... None of those examples involves trusts, does it? And if you have a tax stamp, you have a tax stamp. It's already paid for. And there are NUMEROUS people who have acquired MANY NFA items through using a Willmaker trust. If the ATF is approving trusts, which are made by Willmaker, then I see no reason to no go that route. And using an attorney will STILL GET YOU A TRUST. An attorney is just a different option to get a trust.

 

[fromotoc]

SVT, I looked at your link. I read that post a while ago, and the guy did not get an approved tax stamp or form 3/4/1. IT WAS NOT APPROVED. They sent back the form telling him he needs to work on his trust. They didn't approve it then tell him it was invalid.

 

[fromotoc]

Here is the link to the post the princelaw blogger is referencing http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38360&highlight=trust+invalid .

If you read the whole thing, you will see the OP did not look at his forms well enough at first, and later posts they were NOT APPROVED. Below is his post stating as much.

TheCowboyofKhaos
Silent Operator


Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 51
Location: Afghanistan
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just got to look at my forms, i had my Bro scan and email them all to me. THEY ARE NOT APPROVED. They have the ATF number they stamp at the top of them, so my family told me they were aproved. They each have the paper with them saying that the trust is invalid, and to correct it and re submit to the atf address listed. I hopefully will have this fixed shortly.

 

[SVT]

<DELETED by coctailer>

OK, lets do a scenario here. Mr. Smith, a Felon decides he want's to try go around the system. He does a quick trust with Willmaker, submits it to ATF. ATF approves it and he takes possession (this is done in state so no SOT transfer is needed). You're telling me, that he has a stamp and that makes it legit. Sure you'll say that that's not the same but it is. If the Trust, Corporation or person is not legit than the transfer is null and void.

The article I referenced was by an Attorney, if you think you know the law better than they do go for it. In fact, my SOT who is also a cop sent it to me. I'm just pointing out that it may come back to bite you in the ***. Which really won't be my problem.

 

[fromotoc]

The article is based off something that didn't happen the way it was told. It is a matter of reading the post you're gonna write an article about, which he didn't (to the full extent). So it is a moot point.

I see your felon arguement, I hadn't thought of that. It's a good point. But it is not an issue for us who aren't felons.

 

[Trlsmn]

Ibtb :d

 

[fromotoc]

Sorry about the language mods, but he started it....

 

[dezertdog]

Ibtb :d

 

[PrDubi]

First of all, the incident was not stated the way it was stated.

Second of all, there are literally thousands of people using WillMaker and it has given people no issues whatsoever.

It's a pretty nice program but thanks to people here and in the gun world with their own agenda's and motives... I decided to spend money on a lawyer to gleam it over and even he blessed with ease.

My wallet took a dent also to cure a frigging paranoia thanks to shill lawyers out to make a bucks spreading panic and disorder.

Why not scream FIRE in a movie theater and see where that goes.

 

[Trlsmn]

OK, lets do a scenario here. Mr. Smith, a Felon decides he want's to try go around the system.

Do I even need to point out the nonsensical point here? :Mr Smith a Felon !" Felon, say no more, a felon won't get a legal stamp no matter what paperwork he turns in. Mr' Smith could lie to his lawyer and get a Trust from him also, whats your point?

He does a quick trust with Willmaker, submits it to ATF. ATF approves it and he takes possession (this is done in state so no SOT transfer is needed). You're telling me, that he has a stamp and that makes it legit.

Yes he has a stamp that makes it as legit or not legit as a lawyer creating a trust and isn't a factor with the ATF because the ATF isn't in the business of trust law, if they look over the paperwork and consider the trust valid you get the stamp, paying a lawyer to create a trust isn't a factor in the ATF's decision, nor does it buy you any extra credibility as there is no where on the Form X that asks for your lawyers name.

Sure you'll say that that's not the same but it is. If the Trust, Corporation or person is not legit than the transfer is null and void.

Again it is either legit or it isn't a lawyer doesn't make it extra legit

The article I referenced was by an Attorney, if you think you know the law better than they do go for it. In fact, my SOT who is also a cop sent it to me. I'm just pointing out that it may come back to bite you in the ***. Which really won't be my problem.

As pointed out you are not drawing the correct facts from the Attorney referencing the article so no matter how many Armani suits you throw into you argument it still has no point that I can see, same for the Cop/Sot what do they have to do with the ATF's decision of whether a Trust is valid?

You're talking a lot but you don't seem to be making a point.

 

[krawl]

Do I even need to point out the nonsensical point here? :Mr Smith a Felon !" Felon, say no more, a felon won't get a legal stamp no matter what paperwork he turns in. Mr' Smith could lie to his lawyer and get a Trust from him also, whats your point?



Yes he has a stamp that makes it as legit or not legit as a lawyer creating a trust and isn't a factor with the ATF because the ATF isn't in the business of trust law, if they look over the paperwork and consider the trust valid you get the stamp, paying a lawyer to create a trust isn't a factor in the ATF's decision, nor does it buy you any extra credibility as there is no where on the Form X that asks for your lawyers name.

Again it is either legit or it isn't a lawyer doesn't make it extra legit

As pointed out you are not drawing the correct facts from the Attorney referencing the article so no matter how many Armani suits you throw into you argument it still has no point that I can see, same for the Cop/Sot what do they have to do with the ATF's decision of whether a Trust is valid?

You're talking a lot but you don't seem to be making a point.

Ding ding ding. What we have for the noobs? A felon is a felon, no matter how big or small

 

[SVT]

OK, let's back up here for everyone. Felon = Felon, we all know that he can't legally own/possess. The point is that felon could get a transfer approved (i.e. a tax stamp, but it would not be legal. Do you think ATF checks each person in a corp or trust to see if they are a felon? No they don't. If the Felon buys in state, he can avoid using a FFL or SOT. Do you think that ATF checks the legality of each and every trust and corporation beyond seeing if the corporation is filed with the state or the trust paperwork? In the vast majority of the cases, no they do not. That doesn't change the fact that a corporation or trust done incorrectly per state law is invalid. You can have paperwork for a corporation, but if you fail to renew that stamp is no longer any good. ATF will investigate if they suspect that there is an issue, but the point I'm trying to make is that just because you have a stamp doesn't make it legal. The stamp just states that you have paid the $200 tax. If you fly fast and loose with ATF don't think that they will be your friends and be understanding, they won't. Using an Attorney that is versed in corporations or trust is a good way to CYA.

 

[Trlsmn]

OK, let's back up here for everyone. Felon = Felon, we all know that he can't legally own/possess. The point is that felon could get a transfer approved (i.e. a tax stamp, but it would not be legal.

See your whole argument assumes that a felon can use a trust to hide the fact that he is a felon to receive approval from the ATF, it doesn't work that way, just as a felon will fail a standard background check for a gun, they will also fail a NFA background check regardless of the trust paperwork.

Do you think ATF checks each person in a corp or trust to see if they are a felon? No they don't.

You damn right they do!

If the Felon buys in state, he can avoid using a FFL or SOT.

An illegal purchase is an illegal purchase and is irrelevant to this thread

Do you think that ATF checks the legality of each and every trust and corporation beyond seeing if the corporation is filed with the state or the trust paperwork? In the vast majority of the cases, no they do not.

You damn right they do!

That doesn't change the fact that a corporation or trust done incorrectly per state law is invalid.

The only person that brought a corporation into this debate is you, for the purposes of this thread your point is irrelevant.

You can have paperwork for a corporation, but if you fail to renew that stamp is no longer any good. ATF will investigate if they suspect that there is an issue, but the point I'm trying to make is that just because you have a stamp doesn't make it legal.

Irrelevant, a trust isn't a corporation

The stamp just states that you have paid the $200 tax.

True but still doesn't support your argument

If you fly fast and loose with ATF don't think that they will be your friends and be understanding, they won't. Using an Attorney that is versed in corporations or trust is a good way to CYA.

Sure but that doesn't make it the only way to go nor doe's it even support your argument, and I should add that you will still be the one in the defendents chair not the attorney in a worse case scenario, the ATF could careless, "fast and loose" that sounds familiar I think I probably made that statement last here


Do you have anymore fallacies or facts to throw into this debate?