"Lifeboat" movement

[dobanion]

Well.....I can't get a loan on raw land. PERIOD. No one does it. I have asked sooooo many places, all say "we don't do that, wanna buy a house in the suburbs?"

I'd love nothing more than to borrow $100k for a beautiful piece of acerage, then watch hyperinflation hit and the loan become worthless.

 

[Whitman]

I would be interested in helping with the legal requirements for a project like this. Also, I know of a plot on the market now that might be interesting. It's quite small, but could be useful in some way(s). Seller financed.

 

[rdt]

Just a thought, but a network of "lifeboats" would be really resilient and come through with trade, communication, and mutual defense already rolling. Not to mention redundant bug out scenarios.

Also, something I rarely hear discussed are Native perspectives on collapse and preparedness. The Tribes are prepping, and could be great allies if we remember not to disrespect them. They hold the knowledge of how to live in this land without the luxuries and benefits of civilization, I expect they will do better than most segments of the population.

One last thing, I don't like the way people hear that the northwest is so far ahead in understanding collapse and then decide to immigrate here like it will save them. Its going to capsize the lifeboat, I wish people like Michael Ruppert would stop dropping our name like that, cause it doesnt seem to add anything to his message.

 

[Martini_Up]

Well.....I can't get a loan on raw land. PERIOD. No one does it. I have asked sooooo many places, all say "we don't do that, wanna buy a house in the suburbs?"

I'd love nothing more than to borrow $100k for a beautiful piece of acerage, then watch hyperinflation hit and the loan become worthless.

How does a builder buy land to build upon? Or is it banks have quit lending money altogether (playing the stock market with their bailout $$ instead)?

 

[Gunner3456]

How does a builder buy land to build upon? Or is it banks have quit lending money altogether (playing the stock market with their bailout $$ instead)?

A builder buys the lot and then gets a construction loan to build the house unless of course he has the cash to build the house out of pocket.

The bank will typically lend 80% of the cost, not the value, of the home and lot so the builder may be able to apply some of the loan proceeds to the lot.

A licensed, experienced builder with a relationship with a lender is in a totally different position than the average Joe.

I've done a lot of subdivision development and building as a sideline and I have an "all structures" contractor's license. A few years ago my daughter and son-in-law wanted to buy a lot and build a house. It was a no-go with the bank - no experience and no relationship with the bank for building.

I had to buy the lot and build the house myself, and then they bought it from me on a regular home loan once it was completed and signed off by the building department.

You can also get a loan to develop a subdivision (maybe not now in this market with a glut of lots) but you need to own the land. You can borrow for all of the underground utilities, fire hydrants, curbs, gutters, streets, street lights, etc. You still have to have a ton of your own money in it.

HTH

 

[Just Jim]

Anyone hear on the radio about some organization setting up lifeboat communities. Seems they build in the ground dwellings comepletely stocked for survival and sell them for $50,000 each. 125 miles from percieved threat with comeplet security if you get there.

Even setting up crisis transportation. Guess there is a big call for them as they are building quietly all over the nation.

jj

 

[Riot]

lol, that from Fallout?

 

[Quackerbacker]

There was a massive thriving population living in N America when Jamestown was settled.

The Jamestown Settlers made mistakes and starved while the natives thrived. My advice to avoid repeating their mistakes? Don't spend half your time digging for gold.

Jamestown was far far far from a group of horticulturalists. They made critical mistake after mistake after mistake chief amongst them was settling a low marsh peninsula that, while quite defensible, was crap for growing anything, and mosquito ridden. As well, somehow they failed to realize how much food had spoiled on the trip and they spent that entire summer looking for gold instead of preparing to survive.

Dobanion, i wish you well in your efforts. I have no idea if peak oil is an accurate model, nor if the 700 trillion dollar derivatives markets can continue to float, nor if our governments monetization of our national debt will ever create hyper-inflation, if h5n1 will ever mix with h1n1, 2012, if God will rain pestilence down on a sinful world, etc etc but it's not in my nature to sit on my hands and wait and see and i'm happy to report that there are many others in Oregon who feel the same.

There is a network in Oregon of prepared people, cells that are roughly connected, can communicate wirelessly, and have a vision to help mitigate disaster if our fragile infrastructure ever topples.

Check out survivalistboards.com
also check out Fernando Aguirre's accounting of the 2001 Argentine collapse www.ferfal.blogspot.com. I bought his book and it's incredibly useful.

 

[TheHossUSMC]

There was a massive thriving population living in N America when Jamestown was settled.

The Jamestown Settlers made mistakes and starved while the natives thrived. My advice to avoid repeating their mistakes? Don't spend half your time digging for gold.

Jamestown was far far far from a group of horticulturalists. They made critical mistake after mistake after mistake chief amongst them was settling a low marsh peninsula that, while quite defensible, was crap for growing anything, and mosquito ridden. As well, somehow they failed to realize how much food had spoiled on the trip and they spent that entire summer looking for gold instead of preparing to survive.

Dobanion, i wish you well in your efforts. I have no idea if peak oil is an accurate model, nor if the 700 trillion dollar derivatives markets can continue to float, nor if our governments monetization of our national debt will ever create hyper-inflation, if h5n1 will ever mix with h1n1, 2012, if God will rain pestilence down on a sinful world, etc etc but it's not in my nature to sit on my hands and wait and see and i'm happy to report that there are many others in Oregon who feel the same.

There is a network in Oregon of prepared people, cells that are roughly connected, can communicate wirelessly, and have a vision to help mitigate disaster if our fragile infrastructure ever topples.

Check out survivalistboards.com
also check out Fernando Aguirre's accounting of the 2001 Argentine collapse www.ferfal.blogspot.com. I bought his book and it's incredibly useful.

I have been prepping myself along the same lines your talking about. I have been forming a community that will come together with people that have all kinds of different skills. I have a doctor, electronics genuis/ communications (ham radio etec..), several farmer/ gardener types, and then of course myself (I'm a military man). I was a combat engineer and I have talked to my "community" about setting up a defensive area that can be farmed. I'd like to get the largest farm the community can handle asap if the S does HTF to support ourselves and as many refugees as possible that come our way.

It's kind of expensive, but I see it as an investment that can be recouped if nothing does happen. Meaning we can use most of the items down the road and replace them as they are used if nothing happens. I would encourage everyone to be prepped to some extent for a SHTF secnario so that you can start your own farm or get to a community and join in.

 

[Riot]

FYI Michael Ruppert's site is now up...

www.collapsenet.com

They want $10 a month or $100 a year to subscribe....lol and the real agenda comes out.

 

[Wheeler44]

Okay I'll play....Devils advocate that is......

Having been exposed to the "life boat" movement back in the early '70's, I have some real experience with the subject....

The last time this came up another member here started the thread...At that time we had a small snow flurry..It stopped Portland cold...I mentioned at that time that interpersonal skills are the ones of most use in that situation...It was a good example...People were stuck away from homes and support and were at the whim of every no-drivin' fool on the road..All of our preps were for nuttin'.

Fact: People act differently to and under stress...even expected stress...The guy that is cool and calm every other day, might just come un-hinged when faced with an uncertain future....The gal that is sooooo intense might just mellow out when TSHTF... Ya never know..(unless they were your litter mates and even then...)

What is reality for most of us is.......We won't know when "it" happens or will happen..Our day will start normal and then start a steady slide....We may or may not have everything and everybody just the way we like it...

If you haven't had the opportunity to experience group life with folks outside of family I recommend it...It'll open your eyes..

More than likely all "preparations" will be for the wrong collapse and you will have to start from zero...If you are a "bug inner" imagine a mudslide comin' through the livingroom and takin' out the master suite....If you are a "bug outter" imagine an EMP and very few vehicles able to run.....In both scenarios your "basic plan" just got wadded up and used for toilet paper..


I recommend actively buildin' a skillset "NOW" and not waiting or buying some plastic piece of crap item that'll only waste your time and energy when you need it most....and practice using those skills "NOW" to adjust to, what for most, will be extreme austerity measures....but think..If you cannot handle those measures for a few days now...What'll rebuilding society be like????

Inter-personal skills...Having participated in a few on-line discussions here and other fora, I have come to the conclusion that we are not a polite society...However..Politeness is what it will take to rebuild a "civilized" society..And none of us want to build anything less for posterity....We must learn to get along or at least tolerate each other, as each other is, quite possibly, all we will have....

If I don't get shouted down or ignored I'll expand on these thoughts later..

W44

 

[Decker]

Preach on W, we're listening.

-d

 

[Riot]

Okay I'll play....Devils advocate that is......

Having been exposed to the "life boat" movement back in the early '70's, I have some real experience with the subject....

The last time this came up another member here started the thread...At that time we had a small snow flurry..It stopped Portland cold...I mentioned at that time that interpersonal skills are the ones of most use in that situation...It was a good example...People were stuck away from homes and support and were at the whim of every no-drivin' fool on the road..All of our preps were for nuttin'.

Fact: People act differently to and under stress...even expected stress...The guy that is cool and calm every other day, might just come un-hinged when faced with an uncertain future....The gal that is sooooo intense might just mellow out when TSHTF... Ya never know..(unless they were your litter mates and even then...)

What is reality for most of us is.......We won't know when "it" happens or will happen..Our day will start normal and then start a steady slide....We may or may not have everything and everybody just the way we like it...

If you haven't had the opportunity to experience group life with folks outside of family I recommend it...It'll open your eyes..

More than likely all "preparations" will be for the wrong collapse and you will have to start from zero...If you are a "bug inner" imagine a mudslide comin' through the livingroom and takin' out the master suite....If you are a "bug outter" imagine an EMP and very few vehicles able to run.....In both scenarios your "basic plan" just got wadded up and used for toilet paper..


I recommend actively buildin' a skillset "NOW" and not waiting or buying some plastic piece of crap item that'll only waste your time and energy when you need it most....and practice using those skills "NOW" to adjust to, what for most, will be extreme austerity measures....but think..If you cannot handle those measures for a few days now...What'll rebuilding society be like????

Inter-personal skills...Having participated in a few on-line discussions here and other fora, I have come to the conclusion that we are not a polite society...However..Politeness is what it will take to rebuild a "civilized" society..And none of us want to build anything less for posterity....We must learn to get along or at least tolerate each other, as each other is, quite possibly, all we will have....

If I don't get shouted down or ignored I'll expand on these thoughts later..

W44

You're fine Wheeler...you're entitled to your opinion as well, can't fault you for having one.

Nevertheless, I think you're wrong and right. I think preperations don't just stop at the gear but they include the books. Knowing how to purify water, grow food, build shelters (like houses, not just a lean-to) is just as important as having a rifle with 1K of ammo and a cleaning kit.

There is just simply no way you're going to persuade me otherwise...you need the knowledge, yes, but the gear makes your life easier and the job gets done faster.

Also, I would like you to elaborate more on your thoughts of a "tribal-like" community. The service opens your eyes to the "melting pot" of America. Different cultures, different backgrounds and different upbringings means constant conflict. You don't even know you've pissed off your "buddy" and they didn't even know (or care) that they pissed off you. Steeling your money or your gear when they "need it" isn't a big deal to some people.

I have never had more of my stuff stollen than when I was in the service...from Basic Training to literally my last week in the service in my unit's laundry room. There are just some people out there that just don't care...makes you want to strangle people.

So yes, I do know a bit about living with people from different cultures. One thing we had going for us, though, is we at least had a rank structure....someone was always in charge. Who is in charge in a tribal community? Is there an election? A consensus?

 

[UrbanMan]

Hard to build a Survival Group; probably harder to survive on your own unless you want to be a Mountain Man living in a Dug Out. I have a survival safe location (my Bug Out Location) and we have separate, modest living quarters for my family and my friend's family. This will somewhat mitigate problems with different personalities even though we share the same objective and beliefs. However, I expect that both of us will arrive there with strap hangers in tow, and will expect refugees to show up from time to time.

How many adults is minimum for a survival group? I'm thinking eight, in order to accomplish routine tasks and provide security.

How do you integrate un-planned people into your Survival Group? Obviously available resources will bear on this answer, as well skill sets and perceived personalities of those seeking safety. Anybody you turn away, if they don't become an enemy, will be an OPSEC problem.

This weighs on me heavily as I know friends, and their families will come to me seeking help. I can't take them all in. I have planned small food and survival kit handouts to help send people on their way, but other than that I goingto have to make the decision on a case by case basis.


regards,

UrbanMan

 

[rdt]

It seems like Riot and Wheeler are making compatible points.

The Gear is important, but without the rigorously practiced skills to use the Gear, Im out of luck. And if I prepped for the "wrong" scenario? Well I better have practiced the skill of "flexibility"- like finding or making a new set of gear that fits the "right" scenario.

Perhaps the biggest part of "flexibility" is interpersonal cooperation. Yes this means "tolerance," but more importantly it means solving problems as a group. Hierarchy/Chain-Of-Command gets stuff done, no doubt. But sometimes its not the "right" Gear. So sometimes, yes, consensus might be called for. Other times an election of some sort. And sometimes all thats needed is someone to do what they see needs to be done. No debate, no orders, just initiative. (Not with signature gatherers )

From my experience, cooperation is a lost art in this American culture, we are so used to being ordered around and having a say only in the window dressing of our lives. Most long term projects fail because of a breakdown in the group, not a problem with the project. But I haven't given up on cooperation. I believe we can learn by comparing our notes. So Id love to hear more of what Wheeler has to say.

 

[Wheeler44]

If ya can't get past the title without swearin'...Ya might want to skip ahead to the next post.

As stated before you probably won't have much warning the next time some S*** Hits your own personal Fan...It's why those events are called emergencies..

It could be personal...or regional...... maybe even global...

In every instance, the one skill that will be of utmost use is interpersonal relationships...You will have to deal with other people eventually.. Success will be measured by how well that skill is employed.

For those that worry about not having enough...well, there is more resource around than most folks realize...One of the most useful in an emergency is human resource..

Hippies, Hillbillies and Homeless folks, for the most part, make do with a lot less than most of the rest of society.
Many also live in extended family type communities...That isn't coincidence. It is easier to pool resources than to provide every life necessity for each individual.

It has been my pleasure to live amongst all of the above named groups and each "community" developed it's own hierarchy.. Everything from strong patriarchal to what could be loosely called social democracy to what certainly resembles pre-anarchy with parasitic tendencies.... And I assure you that if you made any assumptions about whom was which you're probably wrong..The ones that thrived, did so because folks shared their resource and cared for the community. The ones that didn't.. failed because they didn't..

You won't know when it's gonna happen and you won't know who's gonna be around when it happens.......Me???? I'd rather be surrounded by friendlies than hostiles so I'll try to get along and help out as much as I can..

And Riot; Skill set, Mind set, Tool set....With a broader skill set and the correct mind set, you can get by with a lot less tool set..I was merely cautioning against putting all faith and hope on a tool set..because, of the three,it's more prone to failure and more replaceable..


W44

 

[Riot]

And Riot; Skill set, Mind set, Tool set....With a broader skill set and the correct mind set, you can get by with a lot less tool set..I was merely cautioning against putting all faith and hope on a tool set..because, of the three,it's more prone to failure and more replaceable..

I can agree to that...but check it out I think you keep too much stock in your "friends".

Each and every person I call a "friend" I would take a bullet for and I'm pretty sure they would do the same. The problem with these "community" settings is that people will look out for themselves, first and foremost. It's a sad fact.

I'm for the smaller group mentality just to stay under the radar more...in fact, I'm actually trying to get with other groups in the area just to bump heads to avoid conflict with each other...not to join forces into a "community".

Sometimes less is more...less bagage means less problems. Less people means you're more under the radar. Less people means you need less gear, supplies and equipment.

Sure it would be great to have a doctor, electrician, mechanic and such...but all that is icing on the cake. You should know how to make a shelter, hunt and gather food and purify water. You can perform a lot of your own first aid just by having the right knowledge and tools.

Interpersonal communication skills are over-rated. Can interpersonal communication fix my truck or feed my family? No. Therefore I should be crawling under my own truck and doing the maintanence on it instead of relying completely on a mechanic...and I should also be skinning and quartering my own deer than simply sending it to a butcher.

Get the training and read up on the information that is avaible NOW. Print out field manuals, maps, schematics and do reaserch NOW while the internet is still up.

I'd recommend educating yourself and gathering the needed supplies over trying to make friends with someone outside your "group".