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Lets talk hypothetical situations here.

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by mobil1, Dec 29, 2008.

  1. mobil1

    mobil1 Northwest Active Member

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    I had a random thought today, and although it sounds farfetched, I could actually see this happening.

    Lets say you are licensed to carry a handgun in your state, and you're outside obeying all the laws. Then lets say someone pulls a gun/knife out on you, and you draw and either fire, or you draw and the person gives up and lays on the ground.

    What if a bystander who didnt see the original confrontation thought YOU were the aggressor/criminal, and then drew his weapon on you? What would you do?

    And to explore the law a little, lets say the bystander fired immediately at you, and the only way to survive was to fire back and kill him? Who is in the right? Would you be found guilty?

    And what if the bystander killed you? What would happen to him after all was said and done?


    Thought it was an interesting scenario. Scary, but interesting.
     
  2. BUZO71

    BUZO71 Emerald Valley, Oregon New Member

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    Wow, see what happens when you stay up late! :bluelaugh:

    At first, I thought the only thing missing was a little green man:bluelaugh: but as I pondered the scenario (in the comfort of my throne:D) I thought its a valid scenario. First, remember that you are talking 'end result.' To get there, you would have to pass the District attorney, Grand Jury and then trial. What I mean is that both the DA and Grand Jury would have to agree to pass this on to trial.

    So, lets assume the DA thought there was enough to send the case to grand jury. then say the grand jury- a group of citizens from your county, agreed that a crime had been committed. The question is really of culpable mental state (intent). That's the legal answer.

    Now for tactical answer. Well, this could have probably been stopped with different tactics. If you confronting deadly force and utilizing deadly force- you should be VERBALIZING. 'Put the gun down,' 'call the police,' 'he's trying to kill me,' 'he's got a knife/gun,' etc. This may give people who didn't see what was going down, some intent on your part.

    As far as him pointing a gun at you, well, how do you know he's not a second threat? This goes back to intent. If you believe he's just a citizen doing his part, you need to verbalize your intent so he can hear you or take actions to show your intent.

    Did I miss anything?
     
  3. PhysicsGuy

    PhysicsGuy Corvallis, OR Resident Science Nut

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    The main flaw in this situation is that a bystander most likely would not see you as the aggressor or a threat if the other guy was laying down. This would most likely appear to any bystander as a plain clothed police officer arresting a suspect with a weapon. I mean if you started grabbing his wallet or something, then it would look different.

    A good answer to this thread is with a rhetorical question. If you were the bystander, would you draw on the person?
     
  4. mobil1

    mobil1 Northwest Active Member

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    I had thought of that, and actually talked to Joey about it in AIM when I showed him the thread ;)

    If the bystander didnt say anything and started shooting at me, I would immediately think he was with the person that was trying to rob/kill me. Im sure if I killed him under those circumstances, I would be in the right.



    I'll answer that question with this question: Lets put ourselves in the bystanders position. For arguements sake, lets say the person robbing a MALE is a FEMALE, that appears to be an every day working class woman. The male, is wearing a leather jacket, and although not terribly clothed, looks a bit on the wild side. Now, if you saw this gentleman with a gun pointed at her head and shes on the ground, what would you do? You dont know anything about the situation until you walk around a corner to this scene. How would you react?

    I know there is infinite possiblilities to a situation like this, and of course, Im adding profiling to the mix, but profiling is apart of human nature. You judge everyone instantly when you meet them, its apart of being a human and its natural.

    Now, even if you didnt profile the individuals, do you wait until the gentleman kills the woman in cold blood before you act? Do you draw immediately and request cooperation from the man with the gun? What if he thinks you're with her and shoots at you? Do you then have the right to shoot back?

    The thing about this situation thats killer is the way its set up. If you wait, and the man is in fact robbing the female and kills her, it would eat away at you forever that you could have done something and didnt. And the flip side to the coin is that you could have it all wrong, and throw gasoline on this fire. Double edged sword I guess, and it hurts my head thinking about it.
     
  5. PhysicsGuy

    PhysicsGuy Corvallis, OR Resident Science Nut

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    Yeah I get what you mean, this situation could happen. But I guess it is good practice to think about it, to know what you would do in such a situation. I mean, I would react by questioning the intention of the personal holding the gun without drawing (but being prepared to). But it is a good thing to think about situations, as in at what point you draw your weapon, and the most important thing is that it should make you consider the consequences of drawing, as someone stated above, the good guy with the gun could thing you were another bad guy if you drew. Also from a legal standpoint, its usually best to be 100% sure of what you are getting into, and knowing who is good and bad before you enter the situation by drawing or firing. But it is a good idea to always be prepared.
     
  6. mobil1

    mobil1 Northwest Active Member

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    I like the boyscout mentality. Always be prepared!


    The way I see it, you can never have enough training. And training mentally is 80% of the battle in my opinion. Its like studying for a test. Sure, you could use process of elimination, guess and check, and various other methods to get an answer right. Or if you studied, you would know the answer before you finished reading the question :p

    I will agree, that this is not an everday scenario. But hey, it only has to happen once to completely change your life in ways you never expected. Whether you draw or not, it could potentially be a bad situation.

    If you guys come up with other scenarios, post them up! I think its a good exercise.
     
  7. BKMDNO

    BKMDNO Oregon New Member

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    If you are going to cary a weapon you need to practice both physically and mentally. How many have worked with their handgun in its concealed position to create the muscle memory to draw without thinking. Have you tried drawing and engaging with different levels of clothing on? Most of society walk around with no clue as to what is going on in their surroundings. They are the ones that end up as victims. I am not suggesting that you be paranoid about going to the mall or the movies and everyone that walks by. Just role play in your mind about the what if's.

    How many times in the recent news around the country has some nut gone off the deep end and started shooting people on the highway or neighborhood? It may only take a wrong look at some other driver and the situation turns quickly into road rage. Before you know it you may have some nut coming at you with a bat or crow bar. What do you do?

    Here are two scenarios that I have first hand knowledge of. First, 15 years ago two hunters, dad and son, are in Grande Rhond after hunting. They stop at the local mini mart. Words are exchanged by the Dad and some local over something stupid. The local pulls out a 22 revolver and verbally threatens Dad. Son pulls out his hunting rifle from the other side of the truck and shoots the local in the neck, drops him dead. The son then finds out the 22 was not loaded and is pretty upset about killing a person.

    Second, Several friends of my were in Portland at the Comedy Club. After an evening of fun they return to their car. The guy that parked next to them starts flicking them garbage and is trying to pick a fight. Now both of my friends are armed and the one being confronted is very quiet spoken, but a black belt in something where he can tie you up in a pretzel. The punk pulls a gun and points it at my friend and tells him how he can kill him and what not. Now friend#2 wants to drop this punk, but cant because friend #1 is standing between them. He could not maneuver on the punk as the two are between the cars. The punk pulls the trigger and the gun did not have a round in the chamber. Punk ends up leaving and gets picked up by PPB. I think he was wanted on some other robbery and what not charges. I think he is currently doing at least a dime in the state pen.

    Scenario 3, Friend leaves work late at night and cranker pulls a knife on him and tries to rob him. Friend pulls gun, would be robber runs.

    It is not like the movies where you hit someone and they go down. I once talked to a guy that used to be a police officer who shot a guy high on coke and other fine drugs. He said the guy came at him with a sword. He started shooting at him and could see the blood drain from his face. but kept coming. His back up tried coming thru the door he was trying to exit and blocked him in. He kept shooting till the guy was right up on him. He said everything went to slow motion. The guy had a Indian head nickel belt buckle on. One of his rounds hit the belt buckle and he said he could see the shimmering nickels floating thru the air. Point being, don't expect someone to go down with one shot or even a entire mag. Practice shot placement.

    Watch the shootout with the Kehoe (Spelling) brothers in the suburban. The trooper and the Kehoe shot at each other from close range and both missed. Its all about training and dealing with the stress of the moment. That being said, it always seems that the crook with the .22 is the one that gets the lucky one in a million shot.

    If you use a weapon, miss, or hit someone else, u are going to be liable. Are you placing your family or those with in danger that are with you by taking action? These are just a few of the questions you need to ask yourself.

    Just a few of my random thoughts
     
  8. mobil1

    mobil1 Northwest Active Member

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    I always think about that, no matter what. Mind your surroundings!
     
  9. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    While holding your weapon on the suspect start yelling for bystanders to call the police and advise dispatch that you are holding this suspect at gunpoint and especially to give the 911 dispatcher your description.

    Get the weapon away from the suspect and order them to lay still, hands out for their own safety. Make the 911 call yourself if you can while covering the subject. Stay at least 5 feet away from the subject so they can't quickly reach you and take your weapon.

    As soon as you hear the police arriving have your CPL ID out and clearly visible, identify yourself as they approach and have your weapon put away if you can safely do so before the police see you. You will probably be at gunpoint yourself for a short time until they find out who is who, so be cooperative and move slowly.

    2nd scenereo, you are being fired upon and you defend yourself by returning fire and end the confrontation, the law allows for this.


    3rd scenereo, you are dead and learn to play harp. Let the survivors sort out the mess.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2008
  10. BUZO71

    BUZO71 Emerald Valley, Oregon New Member

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    I agree with everything except trying to get the weapon way from the perp. Instead, a safer alternative is to take a position of safety and wait for the cavalry to arrive. Make sure you can cover your target- if that guy tries to take that weapon again, stop that threat.

    If you approach someone who just tried to use deadly force against you or another, you run a greater risk of having to re-engage that guy. Also, moving up on him (her) closes that field of vision and then you open yourself up to another attacker.

    Now, that's the rule and there are always exceptions like, you are on the face of the moon and don't expect police/another friendly to come. :D

    FWIW..
     
  11. korntera

    korntera Oregon Member

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    I think something that semi relates to this happened a while ago, Im not sure where so maybe somebody can post the link...

    But a man saw a person enter his neighbors house and leave with some expensive items, the man went to his neighbors house and shot this person. The person turned out being a friend of the neighbor borrowing some items. I think this is why you are only allowed to shoot people on your property or with your property in hand...
    Now how this relates. If somebody has a gun drawn on somebody else it would seem that your life is not immediatly threatened and while you should have some caring part of you that would want to help you should not be firing on the person without some sort of escalation.

    When I took my CHL class a month ago they told us the situation has to first escalate to the use of deadly force. If no gun is pointed at you you should not be firing until you have made contact with the person. IMO Even if shots are fired you should not fire at the person because they may be stopping somebody from harming them and you don't know it so I would ALWAYS make contact first regardless of the situation otherwise I don't think the situation has been escalated to the use of deadly force.

    Just my silly internet opinion though this obviously carries no legal barring
     
  12. AGCR

    AGCR SE Portland Active Member

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    I remember reading years ago about a fellow who responded to a male attacker with a knife assaulting his female neighbor. She escaped to call the cops while he fought the attacker successfully, and took his knife away just as an officer appeared to wittness what seemed to be an imminent murder. The fellow was shot, greviously wounded, left disabled and subsequently spent all his money trying to sue the police department to cover his medical bills.
    I don't remember how it ended but the moral is be super careful when intervening into a violent encounter. That isn't to say don't do it, but to use caution. Also, when carrying, to not make snap judgments when encountering what might seem to be a black and white situation.
     
  13. korntera

    korntera Oregon Member

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    AGCR you should introduce yourself in the new member area. Welcome to the forums!