LEO Perspective

[Howard1955]

Chicago cop says she feared using gun while being beaten

I just came across this report, and am interested in hearing from the active and retired LEO's here.

Do you feel the same way this officer did, and hesitate to shoot a bad guy?

As far as I'm concerned, you guys (and gals) are important to society. If a drug dealer or some other lowlife comes after you, I say blow their brains out.

But that's just me, and I'm not a cop.

What are your thoughts?

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[Joe13]

Why carry a gun if your not willing to use it...?

 

[No_Regerts]

Well, I see a couple things but I would want to know what else was available on scene. Sounded like there were more than one officers there. I can articulate one officer on one or more guys using a gun. You're at a tremendous disadvantage with multiples and I assume a size mismatch if it was just one on one, considering she is female. You get knocked out or disabled, they get your gun, liklihood of them using it on you is high. It makes sense.

But, if its a group of officers with the numbers advantage, tasers, OC, batons, less-lethal munitions, etc, it becomes less reasonable to shoot a guy.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

While I am not nor ever have been a Law Enforcement Officer, I can say that shooting someone may not come as natural* to some people as others.

It is very difficult to say just what someone would do if faced with that decision.
Speaking only for myself , I found that I could , but while being dare I say proficient at it , found that it is never to be thought of as easy or taken lightly.
Andy
(* Edit Hard to find a proper adjective for this process , action or way of thinking )

 

[Joe13]

While I am not nor ever have been a Law Enforcement Officer, I can say that shooting someone may not come as natural* to some people as others.

It is very difficult to say just what someone would do if faced with that decision.
Speaking only for myself , I found that I could , but while being dare I say proficient at it , found that it is never to be thought of as easy or taken lightly.
Andy
(* Edit Hard to find a proper adjective for this process , action or way of thinking )

Well said.

Some people can put an animal down and their emotional reaction can be horrid glee to just not able to do it and everything in between.

I can and will but am a far cry from someone who enjoys it.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Thanks Joe.
It is hard to write or explain just what I feel on this matter.
There times and places that I feel that its no big thing then other times or places it hits hard.

However I feel , I do not want to come across sounding like an internet tough guy.
Almost deleted my first post , 'cause of thinking it might sound this way.
Andy

 

[Joe13]

Thanks Joe.
It is hard to write or explain just what I feel on this matter.
There times and places that I feel that its no big thing then other times or places it hits hard.

However I feel , I do not want to come across sounding like an internet tough guy.
Almost deleted my first post , 'cause of thinking it might sound this way.
Andy

I think it's good for anyone (member or lurker) to see we aren't just a bunch of bloodthirsty rednecks with guns.

I'm glad you didn't delete your post.

 

[Joe13]

Well, I may fit the redneck with guns part but I'm civil and not a stupid backwoods stereotype

 

[SHPD_Retired]

As one who has been involved in a shooting I think her thinking is a bit off. Most departments and families would rather go through the scrutiny of a shooting than go through the grieving process of losing an officer and family member. She may want to rethink her career choice.

 

[Joe13]

As one who has been involved in a shooting I think her thinking is a bit off. Most departments and families would rather go through the scrutiny of a shooting than go through the grieving process of losing an officer and family member. She may want to rethink her career choice.

^^^. I like that answer

 

[Ura-Ki]

I see where Andy is coming from. Having been in a situation in Uniform, where I had to shoot, I can tell you it's an awful experience to have to go through, and to live with after! I remember preparing my self mentally that I may have to use those skills one day and while hoping I never would, I was ready as I could be. I didn't know IF I could do it until I had to! Like Andy, I found I could, But I didn't ever want to! I think a Lot of LEO are like that, they want to do there job the best they can, they want to go home after the shift, but they know deep down that some day they might have to take a life, and that gives pause. As long as that doesn't happen right then and there, All should be OK. Some just cant ever make it past the thought of having to shoot, and I can respect that just as much as actually having to!!!

 

[Joe13]

I see where Andy is coming from. Having been in a situation in Uniform, where I had to shoot, I can tell you it's an awful experience to have to go through, and to live with after! I remember preparing my self mentally that I may have to use those skills one day and while hoping I never would, I was ready as I could be. I didn't know IF I could do it until I had to! Like Andy, I found I could, But I didn't ever want to! I think a Lot of LEO are like that, they want to do there job the best they can, they want to go home after the shift, but they know deep down that some day they might have to take a life, and that gives pause. As long as that doesn't happen right then and there, All should be OK. Some just cant ever make it past the thought of having to shoot, and I can respect that just as much as actually having to!!!

I can agree, but... job or civilan, if you carry a gun then you should already have made that choice and not just 'hope' you will be up for it when the time comes.

I do not wish to demenish a person for not being able to pull the trigger, that is a very personal choice, but as I learned over years of different martial arts from many teachers - any weapon you bring to a fight can and will be used against you if the other person is more willing to use it then you.

 

[Stomper]

While I am not nor ever have been a Law Enforcement Officer, I can say that shooting someone may not come as natural* to some people as others.

It is very difficult to say just what someone would do if faced with that decision.
Speaking only for myself , I found that I could , but while being dare I say proficient at it , found that it is never to be thought of as easy or taken lightly.
Andy
(* Edit Hard to find a proper adjective for this process , action or way of thinking )

I see where Andy is coming from. Having been in a situation in Uniform, where I had to shoot, I can tell you it's an awful experience to have to go through, and to live with after! I remember preparing my self mentally that I may have to use those skills one day and while hoping I never would, I was ready as I could be. I didn't know IF I could do it until I had to! Like Andy, I found I could, But I didn't ever want to! I think a Lot of LEO are like that, they want to do there job the best they can, they want to go home after the shift, but they know deep down that some day they might have to take a life, and that gives pause. As long as that doesn't happen right then and there, All should be OK. Some just cant ever make it past the thought of having to shoot, and I can respect that just as much as actually having to!!!

As I get older thinking back on those "events" (usually on/around the anniversary) and realize "you" and "them" were actually years younger than what your sons are in the "here and now"... coupled with realizing via the 20/20 hindsight of history what a (usually, but not always) bubblegumming waste of resources, grief, and lives it all was... all for the ambitions of VERY SMALL and greedy little men (and women), under the usual guises of "God & Country".

Although things back then needing to be done got done (and done well), "they" were some mother's young sons somewhere. Sometimes when I'm alone driving in the car, thinking about that particular part of the past, I'll choke up & cry about it... I even get angry at it all.

That's all I have to say about that.

 

[Certaindeaf]

We are all human and can err, sometimes with dire results.
Even loudmouthed "operators" can seize right up when the flag flies.
I think Cooper said to always be in a state of assessment with a rolling/iterative plan.. be it standing toe to toe in a curbside interchange or just listening to the clock tick in a "safe place".

Oh, and I didn't click but.. an average woman (with a duty to perform no less) getting in a "fair-fight" with an average man?
They don't train that (lol) to no one last I checked.
It's not like the Octagon. It's a little harder and with more sharp corners for that hair-pull takedown or whatever to put the howdydoo/death on your opponent or visa versa.
so try to be careful

 

[decklin]

I am not a cop.
I was a soldier. On my second tour there were plenty of soldiers afraid that if they fired their weapon they'd end up in prison.
First tour you'd disable a vehicle easy peasy.
Second tour one of my fellow team leaders, we'd served as privates on the same fire team on our first tour, disabled a vehicle our first mission. We were professionals and this was business as usual.
By the time we got back to the FOB our Radios were going crazy. They had investigators with paperwork waiting for him. It was ridiculous. In the end nothing happened.
But the damage was done. Every new guy had just learned that they were better off risking death than taking appropriate measures.
I'd imagine it's the same thing for cops.

 

[mjbskwim]

Joe,martial arts is not even close to deciding if you can actually shoot someone
But I have worked with many a returned vet from action,WWII, Korea,Vietnam,and all the gulf conflicts
Not one of them made light about killing folk

 

[No_Regerts]

99% of your duties as an LEO are fairly mundane. We like to say new guys are like tea bags. you don't know how strong it will be til they are in hot water. Still want to hear hoe many other officers were on scene.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I am not a cop.
I was a soldier. On my second tour there were plenty of soldiers afraid that if they fired their weapon they'd end up in prison.
First tour you'd disable a vehicle easy peasy.
Second tour one of my fellow team leaders, we'd served as privates on the same fire team on our first tour, disabled a vehicle our first mission. We were professionals and this was business as usual.
By the time we got back to the FOB our Radios were going crazy. They had investigators with paperwork waiting for him. It was ridiculous. In the end nothing happened.
But the damage was done. Every new guy had just learned that they were better off risking death than taking appropriate measures.
I'd imagine it's the same thing for cops.

I dodged that war by being too young. Not complaining.
I saw the soldiers on TV in ditches with those red cages over the muzzles of their unloaded M-16's.
And that's terrible.

 

[Joe13]

Joe,martial arts is not even close to deciding if you can actually shoot someone
But I have worked with many a returned vet from action,WWII, Korea,Vietnam,and all the gulf conflicts
Not one of them made light about killing folk

I didn't intend for it to be equal and I've never done it. The only thing I've had to do is put animals beyond help down in my teens and still have nightmares about it sometimes, nor am I proud of it.

I was sighting my only life experience and the point was not that I'm a tough guy or that killing is a subject to take lightly (the opposite was my intention and training to do so with any martial art makes you consider if your willing to make those specific strikes, if you feel your loosing and may die, or go for something hopefully incapacitating) but that even I know not to bring a weapon that I'm not willing to use into a fight; be it a tire iron, knife or gun.



I long ago made the decision that my and my friends and family (and later in life that has extended to other innocents) lives mattered enough to me that I know I'll pull a trigger if forced into doing so.



So far I have received an honorable medical discharge and never saw combat nor do I claim that time as service and never will - I do have plenty of people my age that were in those middle eastern wars including coworkers and friends and I didn't intend to deminish the gravity of shooting someone.

So far in my adult life I've de-escalated all potential fights and am proud of that.


Apologies if my statements were poorly worded and caused any offense (note that this is one of the few subjects I'm willing to apologize for an offense taken preceived or for a poorly worded sentence or paragraph).




I'd have thought you would know me well enough by now that I wouldn't intentionally talk above my knowledge nor disrespect soilders or LEO's sacrifice by serving.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Joe,
I think that your comments in the post in question were fine.
Speaking only for myself , I do not feel that you were comparing or saying that your experience in martial arts is or was the same as a combat experience.

Just that your experiences and teaching have taught you to be mindful of what you can do and will do to survive.
Andy